Spirits Re-make

[Elvyn]

I saw your point, I still think it is stupid. You are basically asking for the same thing we already have, but with no control!

Why do you think we, as SMNs, would want that at all?

/facepalm ok your either stupid or a troll... either way... did you read the bit I put in bold "EXAMPLE" doesn't mean it has to be an existing ability. Also as you already stated in your original post you don't think highly of Elementals as nothing more than a pre-requisite to Elemental Siphon... So please feel free to trololol all you want unless you got an idea on how to improve the eles... please do it somewhere else^^

[Korpg]

/facepalm ok your either stupid or a troll... either way... did you read the bit I put in bold "EXAMPLE" doesn't mean it has to be an existing ability. Also as you already stated in your original post you don't think highly of Elementals as nothing more than a pre-requisite to Elemental Siphon... So please feel free to trololol all you want unless you got an idea on how to improve the eles... please do it somewhere else^^

Wait, what spells can a spirit use that an avatar can't?

Stoneskin? Got Titan for that
Blink? Got Garuda for that
Protect/Shell? Got Carbuncle for that, and you can have both at the same time!
Phalanx? Got Diabolos for that
Enfire? Got Ifrit for that
Enthunder? Got Ramuh for that
Shock Spikes? Got Ramuh for that
Ice Spikes? Got Shiva for that

Basically, avatars can't cast en-blizzard/aero/stone/water or Blaze Spikes. Are we really missing out on those spells?

Seriously, spirits were not made to be close to or exceed avatars. The ability for spirits to cast random spells is nice, but not really worth keeping them out for the pitiful damage they produce with the inability to control them at all. I rather have an avatar using a BP when I want to do spike damage (and possibility of doing a magic burst if timed right) than having a spirit doing weaker damage and possibility of casting Burn over Flare.

[Malamasala]

At the very least, the magic skill of spirits (i.e. elemental, divine, enfeebling) needs to be raised so they're not interrupted and resisted as much.

I'm quite certain spirits are BLMs with the same traits and skills as any other BLM. The issue at hand is of course that they lack the same merits and armor choices that BLMs use. Not to mention they cast random spells with long waits between.

But I'm sure if you bring a naked, unmerited BLM played by a 3 year old, you'd get the same effects.

[Karbuncle]

The only problem i see with "They were designed to be used only before we got our avatars" is the "Spirit Perpetuation Cost" merits. Why have merits for something that they intended not to be used after Avatars were obtained?

Me thinks in the long list of Summoner Adjustments, Spirits should be added to the things adjusted. They don't need major focus, But perhaps actually letting them learn the magic they should have gotten already (I.E Teir V Nukes) and give them their rightful Traits (MAB Traits) so they're not 100% Useless.

Could add a "BP" like System where it could be on a 1 min timer separate from normal casting, that when used made it cast a Nuke.

Either way, it should not be very high on the list of things needing repair as it would be a lot of effort for little reward, Development time that should ideally be spent no improving the job in more meaningful ways.

[Razushu]

The only problem i see with "They were designed to be used only before we got our avatars" is the "Spirit Perpetuation Cost" merits. Why have merits for something that they intended not to be used after Avatars were obtained?

Me thinks in the long list of Summoner Adjustments, Spirits should be added to the things adjusted. They don't need major focus, But perhaps actually letting them learn the magic they should have gotten already (I.E Teir V Nukes) and give them their rightful Traits (MAB Traits) so they're not 100% Useless.

Could add a "BP" like System where it could be on a 1 min timer separate from normal casting, that when used made it cast a Nuke.

Either way, it should not be very high on the list of things needing repair as it would be a lot of effort for little reward, Development time that should ideally be spent no improving the job in more meaningful ways.

I think the merits, are there jsut because SE used to be terrible at deciding what to give to Summoner. Those merits are in the same category as Avatar: atk/acc/mab/macc, elemental perp- didn't really fit in there. Maybe they we're thinking of adding a flat -perp in there and decided against.

as for the bolded, I completely argee with you. When our job is fixed to the point of acceptance, by all means SE should look at the spirits. In the mean time though.... focus on improving the jobs performance.

[Arciel]

i dunno if i should take offense because I'm one of the SMN who chose to merit elemental MP perp cost and still keep those merits to this day.

in defense of elemental spirits and their uses.. at least at lv75, there was considerable use for these summons. they weren't exactly useful, but were definitely not useless.

back then, with a decent gear set for spirits (which meant relic spats + skill gear + perp in remaining slots), you could make your spirits be the most effective that they could ever be - this made them cheap / less effective / possibly more mp efficient options to avatars.
to get straight to the point, they could potentially do a lot more damage from "pure perp cost" mp than avatars did, making them MP efficient in proper situations - key word being potentially because a lot depends on whether they will cast their nukes instead of enfeebles.

one good bad example of this is probably with trying to solo/duo Ule buffaloes. They're weak to magic and you're more likely to run out of MP within each kill if you use an avatar than if you did an elemental spirit. This makes them a lot less MP costly and possibly a lot more MP efficient provided they put out.

The same thing still applies now really, except that in spite of an increase in their natural perp cost, they haven't actually gotten stronger (no new spells), so they've become more inefficient, in a way. However, given that they're so much easier to make free perp-cost wise, any increased casting would greatly improve their efficiency. And this makes SMN nuking wellsprings that would literally not depend on MP at all. The closest comparison we can make to this is nuking automatons and altho they're much stronger they actually have to care for MP management on pet and cannot choose element either, so they each have different trade offs at work.

However, elemental spirits are still outdated. They were only barely useful at 75, so now they've really become redundant

[Malamasala]

Malamasala also has an awesome point eles lack stat boosts of the same lvl Jobs and I don't personally find the casting time of my eles a problem (smn skill @395) but it could stand to do with some tweaking ;P

What do you fight?

My old experiments showed that in a small party with 1-2 melee and 1 SMN using spirits, the monster will be at 20% HP when it starts casting its first spell. If it is DoT, it served no purpose. If it is AM, the mob is dead before it is cast. If it is tier IV, you are overkilling the mob. These were T-VT mobs. In theory you have slightly better shot at nuking a IT mob. However IT mobs will resist you instead, just to spit in your face.

The most basic problem is still the "assault bug". Even if you keep your spirit out 10 minutes, it will take 25+ seconds before it casts a spell after you assault. Why? Because SE decided that it changes "modes" to attacking mode, and it should start at max time because else we wouldn't suffer enough.

Simplest fix to make spirits 250% more efficient is to fix said bug. If I can keep my spirit out 25 seconds and then assault and get an instant spell, it will be so much more worth it than having to wait 25 seconds after assault.

PS. I've bug reported this in March, about my 5th time since 2006. So far, no feedback about if they intend on fixing this, or if it is on purpose that we can't use spirits.

Sometimes I feel that I might as well go make fake error reports, since they do not bother looking into them anyway.

[Secondplanet]

I think the spirits should be redone also, when my wife and i duo stuff i use the light elemental to give us protect IV and Shell IV, This is a great way to get decent buffs but sometimes we're waiting like 5-10mins for the spirit to stop casting regen and haste constantly.

I do believe this needs to be looked into, even if they allow us basic commands like support, debuff or assault. Even with the AI the way it is this would atleast give us the option on how the elementals behave.

[Kaych]

Btw Secondplanet, I do beleve if you cast regen on yourself and haste, your spirit wont cast it. Have the spirit only facing one of you. That makes it easyer to get protect and shell. When you have gotten what you want, u make it face your wife and then cast regen and haste on her. Also if you dont have acess to haste, just stand still till it casts protect. It never casts the same spell again on you. (until it wears off)

For some reason, if u cast Regen II, it will cast regen I on you O.o? so dodnt do that ^_-

[Razushu]

Btw Secondplanet, I do beleve if you cast regen on yourself and haste, your spirit wont cast it. Have the spirit only facing one of you. That makes it easyer to get protect and shell. When you have gotten what you want, u make it face your wife and then cast regen and haste on her. Also if you dont have acess to haste, just stand still till it casts protect. It never casts the same spell again on you. (until it wears off)

For some reason, if u cast Regen II, it will cast regen I on you O.o? so dodnt do that ^_-

I've never seen it do that, I must be lucky lol. Thanks for the info