Spirits Re-make

[Razushu]

Only trouble I see with your "spirits" are only good for a quick mp burst is that the same could be accomplished with a /JA wITHOUT the need for spirits. Since speed of spirits summons is negilable.

As I said once before, I have a long memory...if SE DIDN'T want spirits to expand why allow them to evolve over time matching blackmage lvl casting up until 75 then completely forget them?

The ONLY answer that makes sense is that at higher lvls elementals AND mob Summoners would become quite overpowered. Since for the most part mob Summoners DON'T have access to avatars, this issue isn't raised in the normal scope of things except for the astral flows.
By this same token, giving access to "high level spirtis" to BOTH players AND mob Summoners SE thinks it will overpower BOTH jobs.

The ONLY balance between a BLM and spirit nuking is in Fact, the already established spirit nuke casting cycle and timer.

I think SE needs to breakout their testing server, unlock spirits "full" capabilities and see whether or not both players, mob Summoners and those fighting them can be effective choices(if they haven't already).
if SE believes as I stated that this would be too strong, they should at least publicly state this to drop the spirits upgrade discussion.

They could have given us the /ja as a non-conditional ability, but I don't think they would consider that balanced. Elemental Siphon over time will give us back MP comparable to Convert, if it were to work withut needing to call out the appropriate spirit it could be called OP. As it works now to Siphon we need to dismiss our Avatar(which can be dangerous solo), which loses us things like Avatar TP, Avatar hate built up, and favor charge. This is balanced against the likes of Convert in battle.

They never matched BLM casting, they got the same spells at the same level as wild elementals(iirc), I think sE was updating their spell lists up until 75, because the wilds were getting spells up until this level too, I don't think SE has completely forgotten them, it's more a case of they weren't really doing anythiong with them in the first place, they already served their purpose.

Another answer that makes sense is that spirits are supposed to be weaker, hence why regular mobs use them, while NMs opt for Avatars. I don't see how higher level spirits could OP either, Avatars are already far stronger in both cases. The behaviour of SMN monsters, could be a clear indication of what SE thinks of spirits, and their uses.

SE could breakout their testing server to do this but honestly what would be the point? Spirits might close the gap some when it comes to nuking power, but would would SMN actually gain from this? Lets say you're fighting a monster that is weak to fire in a small group and a lvl1 merit pact and a spirit tier5 do similar damage. First off an update like this gains SMN nothing they still have the same nuking capability, just another pet to do the same damage, but then you add in the fact Ifrit is giving enfire and warcry fulltime to everyone in the group, the spirit once again falls behind leaving SE to say whoops, and the people demanding a buff to spirits scrathing their heads wondering why they thought it was such a big deal in the first place.

If SE is going to buff spirits, it cannot do it in a capacity an Avatar is already filling better than a spirit or it's a waste of time. It will be interesting to see what they do, if anything regarding spirits in this lin of thinking.

[Soranika]

I wonder why people keep making Odin out to be some bad ass as an excuse to assume SMN is over powered. Especially coming with a DRK with access to something like the Twilight Scythe.

Sorry, typing out loud.

[Malamasala]

If SE is going to buff spirits, it cannot do it in a capacity an Avatar is already filling better than a spirit or it's a waste of time.

The interesting part is that you think a spirit beating an avatar would mean they are better in all situations. It is actually possible to make spirits better DDs than avatars, on monsters who do not resist magic or cast stunga/sleepga/silencega. Because Avatars would still be better on those. And as long as avatars are better, there is nothing to complain about, is there?

Still the most simple solution is to just combine/merge spirits and avatars with some kind of favor or something (spirit's favor), since then everyone wins. Both pro-spirit and pro-avatar. The only problem is if SE thinks it is unbalanced with siphon pet always available, and two pets to absorb damage (I doubt they'd be able to fight two different monsters though).

The possibilities with spirits are endless, but it requires someone to actually work on them.

[Razushu]

The interesting part is that you think a spirit beating an avatar would mean they are better in all situations. It is actually possible to make spirits better DDs than avatars, on monsters who do not resist magic or cast stunga/sleepga/silencega. Because Avatars would still be better on those. And as long as avatars are better, there is nothing to complain about, is there?

Still the most simple solution is to just combine/merge spirits and avatars with some kind of favor or something (spirit's favor), since then everyone wins. Both pro-spirit and pro-avatar. The only problem is if SE thinks it is unbalanced with siphon pet always available, and two pets to absorb damage (I doubt they'd be able to fight two different monsters though).

The possibilities with spirits are endless, but it requires someone to actually work on them.

I think you're misunderstanding me, I don't for a second think SE will ever buff spirits to surpass in any area, from a storyline pov, and the way only NMs and Dyna SMNs get Avatars(the other chumps are stuck with spirits). Avatars already get better magic damage choices than spirits, both in reliablity and potency.

I'm not against a buff to spirits, like yours mentioned here, it does satisfy both parties, and it buff spirits in a way that doesn't fill an already filled role. Which is the only way work on spirits wouldn't be wasted in the long run.

[Covenant]

Without going into the whole TP argument...in between bloodpact and blood ward a player has a few seconds to play with. Why not summon a spirit to "wishfully" cast a strong nuke also, then continue with pacts and wards? This is especially so when Summoners are in the support role. The straight damage role is the avatar/summoner dual combo.

My summoner is dusty, but all the AoE tend to be short lived unless a player is "significantly" geared passed the skill cap. War cry is one of the shortest, though the doulbe attack favor is nice. When a summoner is buff player groups, dropping a strike and wards takes 1min each..usually back to back. That leaves players with around 45-50 seconds of "down time" or regular avatar melee. Since spirits are super quick to summon, you know have an opportunity for at most 1 spell. Unfortunately it'll be a enfeeb which makes spirits useless. If it were a garunteed nuke, more player I think would whip it out. If the cycle was nuke > enfeeb > nuke etc.. More players could factor this in as a "free" bloodpact.
I'm reminded of BLM camp against mob Summoners... 9/10 an elemental will lead with the "big nukes" while player spirits 9/10 will lead with a buff or enfeeb.

When a summoner player is playing solo, then yes it'll be pointless to play the summon/dismiss game.

[Soranika]

Spirits are unreliable, even during the down time. There's no point to summon an avatar to use BP: Rage then release to summon a spirit that probably would take that full 45-50 seconds before it even starts to cast a spell. You'd be better off switching between avatars for BP: Rage and BP: Wards for buffs/enfeebs respectfully. With timing, you can reliably pump out a rage and ward blood pact without any less than 5-10 seconds of downtime. With perfect pacing, you can summon a spirit for elemental siphon without breaking your stride.

Elemental spirits are still vastly weak and the player SMN spirits aren't as great as mob SMN spirits.

[Malamasala]

There's no point to summon an avatar to use BP: Rage then release to summon a spirit that probably would take that full 45-50 minutes before it even starts to cast a spell.

I like your mistake there, since it does actually take 45-50 MINUTES if you are fighting easy prey mobs that die before the spirit starts casting. (Actually it takes infinite time, but 45-50 minutes is more funny since it is meant to be seconds)

[Soranika]

I like your mistake there, since it does actually take 45-50 MINUTES if you are fighting easy prey mobs that die before the spirit starts casting. (Actually it takes infinite time, but 45-50 minutes is more funny since it is meant to be seconds)

LOL yeah I meant seconds, not minutes. xD

[Zemarin]

Spirits should just take less time to cast less... end of Story.

Oh ya and not be dumb about it.

[Tannlore]

The only things spirits need are:

1)A fix to their AI (no you don't have to spam burn/choke/frost/etc. over and over again)
2)The new tier spells that have been added post 75

Their casting times are just fine as they are now. Are you staking your skill/gear like you should to encourage them to cast faster? Or are you using what ever you have on, and tossing out any old spirit contrary to day/weather as you see fit?

What I don't understand is..... Why on earth would you want these things to come close to the level of your avatars? In all honestly they were put in back in the day for people to use when they couldn't GET the avatars to begin with. I know this is entirely hard to imagine now, but back then when they came out it was HARD to get them. Hell, having Fenrir was a massive achievement all unto itself. Not everyone had people who could run them to the cloisters to get the avatars for them, and back then those fights were difficult for people to accomplish until gear/skill improved.