Spirits Re-make

[Razushu]

I think the trouble with most Summoners on this thread is that they are viewing avatars AND spirits from the viewpoint of a lvl 90 summoner. They are incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90. If SE DIDN'T want spirits to evolve why did SE lvl and adjust them up to lvl 75? Razushu and korpg treat them as it they are tier 1 fire spells that no one uses anymore.

Not really even way back when I was starting out, once I hit lvl20 I stopped using spirits, Avatars are just plain better. thinking of SMN 20-90 Avatars>spirits, that's just the way it is. They're about as effective as Tier IIIs, and as is the way with all jobs we leave things behind as we level up. Level 1-19 they were actually ok, gave some variety while you couldn't get the Avatars.

Understanding this has nothing at all to do with being "incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90", it has to do with knowing things aren't always meant for heavy use from lvl 1-90. In all honesty a far bigger problem for SMN lvl 1-75 is scarcity of -perp gear, this is a far bigger problem leveling the job than a replaced set of pets ever was or could be, in fact lack of gear in general is very debilitating to SMN lvl 1-50.

I don't think direct command is the answer to spirits or bloodpactting, though I wouldn't mind it. Simply allowing them to lvl to 90-99 with all appropriate stat adjustments would do wonders. I still have hope for improved avatar functionality in the "multiple effect" Bloodpacts, but still view spirits in the melee/tank/nuke role.
The speed casting could be address via special "spirit gear" but with the casting caps and stupid IE(though ailment resists is because their MaB is so low) I doubt players would adjust their play unless a bloodpact AND garunteed nuke could both be used in a 1min timer.

The problem with that view is thats what Avatars are for too alongside buffing and healing. If SE is going to bother doing something to the spirits, it would have to be something along different lines of thought to Avatars. Sure they could make spirits nukes a little more reliable, and make them a little stronger, but it's highly unlikely they will make them equal or near equal to an Avatars power, which would be a completely wasted update. Any update to spirits along current lines of pet evolvution would be totally wasted man hours, lets say they buffed spirits to 80% power of Avatars, what would that accomplish? Can we do anything we couldn't before? No. Do we have a better tank/DD pet? No. Better nuking pet? No. Better buffer? No. About the only thing we could do is <assault> a relatively weak NM with a group, and afk for 5 minutes while our pet makes it look like we were still there.

If SE is going to do something to spirits, it will have to be something no one ever expected, because a straight forward buff to them will be a complete waste of time because we already have pets fillling those roles much better.

I understand that you like spirits and want to see them buffed, thats fine but there's nothing that SE can do to them that Avatars won't outshine them at, unless that buff is something radically different from what Avatars already do. I can't actually think of what that could be atm, but who knows they might suprise us.

As the game is now SE is doing the completely right thing ignoring spirits and working to improve our Avatars, it's the best way they can improve the job, and bring it to the level it needs to be. I'm not saying never to a spirit adjustment, just please not right now, and make it something we can't already do with Avatars, or they will have just wasted time updating SMN in a way that doesn't actually benefit the job, just lets people who want to, play with spirits.

[Soranika]

How about a job ability with a moderate recast time that will actually grant us control of our spirits long enough to choose what spell they use, just one. I don't like being pushed out NM parties as SMN because SE's sick sense of humor decided not to let Avatar's IV tier black magic and merited blood packs not count. Or generally say that summoning magic isn't really magic.

[Arciel]

I think the trouble with most Summoners on this thread is that they are viewing avatars AND spirits from the viewpoint of a lvl 90 summoner. They are incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90. If SE DIDN'T want spirits to evolve why did SE lvl and adjust them up to lvl 75? Razuho and kropg treat them as it they are tier 1 fire spells that no one uses anymore.

this is a sentiment I share with you. None of the spirits have grown past level 75 with the exception of Light Spirit with the Banish spell that WHMs don't have, and possibly something from Dark Spirit but those have always been useless anyway.

In other words, whatever usefulness they had at 75 has either remained the same or gone down (mostly the 2nd one)..
at this point i think it really boils down to one of two main things that they can do to make Spirits relevant again.

1) increase their natural MAB and MACC substantially so that their nukes and enfeebles are even decent when being used. Especially past 75, altho this has been a slight issue in the past already. At least if its random, its still worth it.

2) increase control of the spirits abilities. Allow players to control roughly when/what/how the spirit acts. In other words, it may still be weak, but at least I can control what it does.

secret option 3) increase both areas to a certain extent. wouldn't want them to overshadow Avatars now.

secret option 4) give Spirits an entirely new use that doesn't involve summoning them for 3 seconds and dismissing.

There is a lot of potential here that can be worked in through new JA, JT or gear. I just don't think Spirits are even within range of being a main concern from developers because they think we don't use them anyway - although in reality we don't use them because they aren't doing enough to these spirits.

[Covenant]

Hmm just thought if something...what if avatars continued on the straight "damage up path" of physical and melee, while the spirits took my "multi-effects path"? That is the hybrid spirits could cast new enfeebs not seen. Such as my "murk" spell combine water and dark, to get blind and poison effects. Concievably, these enfeebs and buffs could be the next tiered spells such as poison 3, paralyze 3 etc.?


Just giving spirits new, not seen enfeebs such as next tiered...would allow Summoner to quickly summon spirits in-between avatars Bloodpacts/wards AND element siphon making spirits useful. This would allow avatars to focus only on damaging. No toes will get stepped on.

Thos is of course the issue of low skill lvl (cap 75). But if they could increase fNPC fellows they can increase spirits.

[Malamasala]

Level 1-19 they were actually ok, gave some variety while you couldn't get the Avatars.

Ok? Thunder and Ice are learned so late that those spirits do not even have spells at 19. I think you get fire somewhere around 17? Leaving you mainly with earth, wind, water in the dunes... which also happen to cast poison, bind, silence and such and cause you to wait 2 minutes average per spell and use 2*20*~4 MP for it. Yea, roughly 160 MP for a Stone I spell.

Call that ok if you want, but don't expect me to think you aren't insane.

[Shadotter]

One idea I've been wondering about for a while is what if you make spirits better in certain situational cases. Such as maybe making it more highly effected by weather and day by giving it a stronger haste effect, or giving it a bonus for taking on an enemy's elemental weakness. Something that makes it so that in most cases, avatars are stronger, but at certain times you can benefit more from a spirit.

[Neonii]

I think it would be cool to have the avatar and spirit out at the same time in lieu of using an npc. I know overpowering ect but I can dream.

[Malamasala]

I think the only balance issue of avatar + spirit is that your monster has to kill 2 pets with 50% damage reduction to get to you. However if you made spirits summoned along with avatars, and made spirits die on avatar death, then I think it would be balanced.

Well, further changes would probably be needed. Because even if your avatar had a spirit companion, they'd still be mostly useless. It isn't like a pet casting shock is going to make or break your solo session. And unless AI is fixed, it will cast shock more than anything else.

[Razushu]

Ok? Thunder and Ice are learned so late that those spirits do not even have spells at 19. I think you get fire somewhere around 17? Leaving you mainly with earth, wind, water in the dunes... which also happen to cast poison, bind, silence and such and cause you to wait 2 minutes average per spell and use 2*20*~4 MP for it. Yea, roughly 160 MP for a Stone I spell.

Call that ok if you want, but don't expect me to think you aren't insane.

I call it ok for ok levels lol, they were something to mess about with until you got the other Avatars(which were actually too expensive to use effectively too). The only pets that were low enough cost to be worth using at low levels were Carby & Fenrir, of which most people were stuck with Carby only at low levels. ~lvl20 it was still Avatars>spirits, but the gulf was much narrower.

[Malamasala]

Fine with me. I call it bad at bad levels