Bard ~ Job Manifesto

[Jackalman]

I'll admit to not knowing about the "song effect duration" being applied to debuffs. I never tested it and don't really use that gear in my debuff set anyway. Seems strange to me, but you seem to know what you're talking about, so I'll take you at your word. I also know that skill does not affect potency. I was not thinking properly when I read it and thought you were referring to resist rates. Since Daurdabla has no +1/2/3 to any songs, it does nothing to actual potency and therefore really shouldn't be used except for the 3rd song buff or if the skill is needed to land a debuff and you don't have a Gjallarhorn. I really just misread what you said and I apologize.

As for me saying "finale and finale", that's what I get for not proofreading. I meant lullaby and finale. I still keep nursemaid's harp on me for occasional use. I use sorrowful harp for threnody still, and I used military harp for finale up until better options were pretty recently added. I always preferred maximum duration to the small chance of having a higher resist rate by not using a wind instrument.

I was assuming SE would gimp massacre elegy somewhat. If they keep it at 100%, then Gjallarorn-only makes sense. In that case, they could make an in-between tier elegy that could be quested for non-Gjallarhorn bards. Just an idea.

I still disagree with 40 skill being worthless compared to simply using a wind instrument. Without looking it up right now, 1 skill is supposed to be worth 0.5 MACC or 0.5 CHR or something. You honestly think that using a level 1 flute compensates for this simply because it is a wind instrument? I can't believe that could possibly be true. Having a +1/2/3 to the song effect only affects potency and duration as you said, not resist rate. However, I assume you have a debuff set with a ton of MACC and CHR, so why should landing songs using a stringed instrument be a problem? Even if you use string gear to maximize your aoe range, this has a significant impact on lowering resist rates as well. Your arguments seem to suggest that we are debuffing naked except for an instrument.

I'm not really sure how my post was "riddled with bits of wrong info and silly logic" since you only called me out on the one thing. We obviously are both coming from the same place here. I'm not trying to criticize, but I'mn stating factual information just as you are. We should probably just meet for a beer and discuss the finer points of bardery.

[Hayward]

I really believe a lot of Bards will retire the job if Massacre Elegy is limited to Gjallarhorn exclusively. What point would there be to continue playing the job otherwise? Knowing this playerbase, you and I know exactly what will happen if a Bard tries to get into an event without it. I could transcribe it word for word, but that isn't necessary. You're reading it in your mind as you read this post.

One thing I'd like to see is a more diverse array of enfeebling songs (Requiem, Elegy, and Threnody isn't quite active enough for my liking). A Terror-based song, maybe? Confusion?

[Leonlionheart]

I really believe a lot of Bards will retire the job if Massacre Elegy is limited to Gjallarhorn exclusively. What point would there be to continue playing the job otherwise? Knowing this playerbase, you and I know exactly what will happen if a Bard tries to get into an event without it. I could transcribe it word for word, but that isn't necessary. You're reading it in your mind as you read this post.

One thing I'd like to see is a more diverse array of enfeebling songs (Requiem, Elegy, and Threnody isn't quite active enough for my liking). A Terror-based song, maybe? Confusion?

Why would anyone quit just from losing out on a song that they've lived without for years? I think the community is getting kind of spoiled, I mean we really got about half of one level cap raise's content every year previously. You just didn't notice you were getting next to nothing because the content took you forever to do.

[Zirael]

I really believe a lot of Bards will retire the job if Massacre Elegy is limited to Gjallarhorn exclusively. What point would there be to continue playing the job otherwise? Knowing this playerbase, you and I know exactly what will happen if a Bard tries to get into an event without it. I could transcribe it word for word, but that isn't necessary. You're reading it in your mind as you read this post.

I doubt it will be any worse than being a TH3 Thief in your endgame linkshell back at lv75.

[detlef]

Yes this will be terrible for non-ghorn brds who will be forced to raid on a different job. I really, really feel for you guys, having to come on BLU one day, WAR another day, NIN another day... But not me! I get to come BRD every day!

[Yinnyth]

Do you think that the potency of Debuffs is affected by Skill?

It's not. It only affects Resist rates.

Requiem has a soft cap on its damage, no? Similar to paeons, you can break a skill barrier and suddenly requiem 7 does 8 damage/tick instead of 7.

Something I'm confused about is just before the post by Camate, you disagree with me and claim that Daurdabla is better for bards than Gjallarhorn:

Gjallarhorn is really only good for Ballad and Scherzo, among many other useful traits it has though (Wind based March +3 is nice if you don't want to hit Mages in certain areas, etc.)

It'll prove to be extremely useful when the next March Tier is released due to the skill on it.

Which I disagree with. I think a third march would actually be better for Derpa than Ghorn. And after Camate's post, you seem shocked at his comments regarding Gjallarhorn getting another level tier next update:

As excited as I was about the part with Massacre Elegy, I couldn't believe what I was reading about the Dev. Team's comments about "Gjallarhorn's lack of power."

In fact, Camate's comments about gjallarhorn seems to be in direct response to your comments that daurdabla is better. So I don't think he's saying gjallarhorn is underpowered anymore than you were... if you were. I can't really be certain since your 2 posts seem to be in opposition to one another what you're getting at.

[VoiceMemo]

There are 2 sides to this issue IF massacre elegy is made to be Gjallarhorn only,
the ones that have Gjallarhorn and the ones that do not.

The ones that have Gjallarhorn will welcome Gjallarhorn specific song as it has been
overlooked for a long time. Relic weapons and shield are all recognized when players either see
the item on their character or the weapon skill that only came with the weapon(this case for gun
and bow, as they are not seen on character unless examined like Gjallarhorn or used in battle) Gjallarhorn is unique in relics where their effect is not as noticeable unless you were a mage and specifically counted the mp/tic.

The ones that do not have Gjallarhorn will be angry that they don't have access to the song. Now some of you may say well make a weaker version of the song available via quest or some other means to non relic owners, like the weapons that allow non relic weapon holders to use the relic weapon skill. This comparison is slightly different though, because the weapons that allow non relic weapon holders to do the weapon skill are pretty much there just for fun. I've not seen any dd try to use them seriously over other weapon skills. The same cannot be said for a spell, even if it reduced in potency. Even if it is reduced to say 75% slow, granted yes 100% slow is greater than 75% slow does this really help the production of new Gjallarhorns? I seriously doubt anyone that is not currently working on Gjallarhorn would consider going after 1 instrument that would only be a ballad/scherzo/25% greater elegy instrument than a normal bard.

I know there are people out there that have said that people that own their relic now have used their Dynamis linkshell to get it, that leaders have been unfair and greedy. While I can't speak for everyone I can speak for myself. I waited a good 2 years to even fund in my dynamis linkshell(I was not a leader at the time), once I started funding I started to lead runs and even now, 2 years after I've completed my relic I'm still leading runs and helping out the linkshell. So as a relic owner I feel that I've done above and beyond what is required for one, and that a Gjallarhorn specific song is well warranted.

I for one was not pleased when +3 versions of instruments came out BEFORE Gjallarhorn got the trials to become +3 all songs. I felt that it was an insult to relic owners that newer instruments were greater than the all songs level of Gjallarhorn. Granted yes, the trials were added AFTERWARDS, but to be fair they should have been added at the same time.

I don't think massacre elegy being Gjallarhorn only would stop people from playing bard. The people that play bard are unique, in the fact that we as bards live vicariously though others. The nature of bard is to buff those around us, we don't have the personal glory of being highest damage dealer, best enfeebler, or best tank. We are there to make the party run more efficiently, our purpose is a pure support role(brd/whm).

I've never seen a DD quit just because they didn't have access to relic weapon skills before the weapons that allowed non relic weapon owners to perform the relic weapon skills, so I don't think a non relic bard would quit either from lack of a Gjallarhorn specific spell. I for one thing Massacre elegy is worthy of being a Gjallarhorn specific spell due to it's potency. It would bring at least something to the instrument, as to not be just a ballad/scherzo/inventory saver instrument. I think it would bring distinction of a bard during battle, like when we see a DD using the relic weapon skill(real relic weapon skill) where as till now we have lacked it.

SE has said before that relics are not meant for everyone, whether or not they have changed this stance remains to be seen. If not everyone is supposed to own a relic, I think it would be unfair to give a reduced powered version of massacre elegy to non relic bards(this is assuming it is added to Gjallarhorn). Comparing it to relic weapons it would be like the owners of the weapon that allows one to perform the relic weapons weapon skill asking for instead of sometimes
3x damage, a lesser degree of 1.5x damage. Gjallarhorn as well as Aegis are both in unique positions in the game, so there may not be accurate comparisons to existing methods. In my opinion the only players that would care about massacre elegy being Gjallarhorn specific are career bards, which if they are career bards I would think they would be
working for Gjallarhorn already or at least thinking about it.

[Creelo]

Requiem has a soft cap on its damage, no? Similar to paeons, you can break a skill barrier and suddenly requiem 7 does 8 damage/tick instead of 7.

Ahhh, this is something I totally forgot about, wasn't thinking about Requiem when it came to potency of songs. Just Elegy/Lullaby/Thren. >.< Oh Requiem...

Something I'm confused about is just before the post by Camate, you disagree with me and claim that Daurdabla is better for bards than Gjallarhorn

Yeah lol, I said before the official Bard's Manifesto post that Daurdabla had much more overall use than Gjallarhorn at the current stage of the game, which is disappointing because of how hard Gjallarhorn is to obtain. I then went on to explain how Gjallarhorn was so lackluster. How is this confusing?

After the official Post from Camate, I said I was shocked because I couldn't believe SE was thinking that Bard's were debuffing with Daurdabla instead of their respective instruments (Since Harps are less accurate than Horns, Daurdabla doesn't provide any bonuses to debuffs, etc.). Gjallarhorn is obviously a better instrument to debuff with compared to all others. I was shocked that SE thought Brds were using a Daurdabla to debuff with and thought that Brds were contesting whether Daurdabla was a better debuff instrument than Gjallarhorn. We all already know that Gjallarhorn is a better debuff instrument, duh?

Not to mention, you can land Elegy and debuffs pretty easily without Gjallarhorn on a majority of the mobs in this game. SE clearly missed the mark when relaying that information to us... <_<

In fact, Camate's comments about gjallarhorn seems to be in direct response to your comments that daurdabla is better. So I don't think he's saying gjallarhorn is underpowered anymore than you were... if you were. I can't really be certain since your 2 posts seem to be in opposition to one another what you're getting at.

First, the bolded doesn't really make any sense. O.o

I never said Daurdabla was a better Debuffing instrument compared to Gjallarhorn. <.<

I said that Daurdabla was a much more useful instrument as a whole compared to Gjallarhorn as of the lvl 90 Cap. The general gist of my reasoning was that Gjallarhorn only really benefits two songs atm: Ballad and Scherzo. Ballads are hardly needed anymore since they're obsolete in Abyssea, and we can get so much refresh/MP outside of Abyssea. Scherzo is such a situational song that it's not really used too much (very useful though when needed), especially because people who don't have a Daurdabla would have to give up a song like March. Thus, it's better to just use Scherzo with Daurdabla, since it can be used as the third Song and potency difference between a Daurdabla's Scherzo and a Gjallarhorn's Scherzo is quite small.

And as I said before, the skill on Gjallarhorn isn't really needed for Debuffs as of now since Brds can easily debuff most mobs without a Gjallarhorn.

Thus, Gjallarhorn is definitely less useful than a Daurdabla at this stage of the game, and that SE should increase its effectiveness (like they slowly have been for the other Relics, not to mention the Aegis buff) by giving Gjallarhorn its own, exclusive and useful song, whatever that may be. Because even if Gjallarhorn receives "All Songs +4" at the lvl 99 Cap, it's still going to be a rather lackluster instrument.

I'm not really saying statements like "Daurdabla > Gjallarhorn for EVERYTHANG!!" Obviously, it's optimal to use both. <.< But Daurdabla is going to offer way more with its Third Song than Gjallarhorn can right now at the lvl 90 Cap, and is much easier to obtain too.

Yay for basically reposting my Gjallarhorn Buff thread OP x.x Hopefully this kinda spells it out for you. <.<

*As for Gjallarhorn buffing a Third Tier of March, this is rather interesting. March III with Gjallarhorn will have more potency rather than being sung with Daurdabla since it has "All Songs +3" and there is more Wind Skill gear than String skill gear currently available. If you have a Daurdabla and are without a Gjallarhorn... it could possibly be better to sing March III as the third buff with Daurdabla due to all the skill on it... Victory March -> Song #2 -> March III I mean. Idk though, we'll see? Probably not? Who knows... Either way, you'll probably be maxing Magical Haste anyways lol. If you can cap Magical Haste without using Gjallarhorn and with Daurdabla, then it'd probably be best to sing March III with Daurdabla anyways. But this would just makes Daurdabla even more of useful than Gjallarhorn! lol

@Jackalman Sometime I'll compare debuffing with Daurdabla vs. a horn like Faerie Piccolo on something resistant to Lullaby, perhaps high-lvl Spectators in Abys. Uleguerand Range. It won't be much testing... but it won't be like 5 casts lol, I'll report back truthfully too since this is something I'm really interested in myself lol My guess though is that they'll either match eachother or the Horn will pull ahead a lil bit with getting less resists.

[Creelo]

That was an awesome post VoiceMemo!

Was talking to a Gjallarhorn Brd, and they made a good point that it'd just be nice for SE to release new songs where the skill on Gjallarhorn was really needed to hit new and meaningful tiers. Really, it'd just be nice for SE to release more songs like that for everyone so we all could get a little more use out of our skill gear, whether we have a Gjallarhorn or not.

[Flionheart]

Skill needs to be relevant. What's the point in releasing AF3+2 when the skill on some of the pieces is effecting 2 songs only, and 2 situational songs at that.

Assuming they're not just pandering to people who are too lazy to get skills at cap that is.