Bard ~ Job Manifesto

[Creelo]

That was an awesome post VoiceMemo!

Was talking to a Gjallarhorn Brd, and they made a good point that it'd just be nice for SE to release new songs where the skill on Gjallarhorn was really needed to hit new and meaningful tiers. Really, it'd just be nice for SE to release more songs like that for everyone so we all could get a little more use out of our skill gear, whether we have a Gjallarhorn or not.

[Creelo]

Requiem has a soft cap on its damage, no? Similar to paeons, you can break a skill barrier and suddenly requiem 7 does 8 damage/tick instead of 7.

Ahhh, this is something I totally forgot about, wasn't thinking about Requiem when it came to potency of songs. Just Elegy/Lullaby/Thren. >.< Oh Requiem...

Something I'm confused about is just before the post by Camate, you disagree with me and claim that Daurdabla is better for bards than Gjallarhorn

Yeah lol, I said before the official Bard's Manifesto post that Daurdabla had much more overall use than Gjallarhorn at the current stage of the game, which is disappointing because of how hard Gjallarhorn is to obtain. I then went on to explain how Gjallarhorn was so lackluster. How is this confusing?

After the official Post from Camate, I said I was shocked because I couldn't believe SE was thinking that Bard's were debuffing with Daurdabla instead of their respective instruments (Since Harps are less accurate than Horns, Daurdabla doesn't provide any bonuses to debuffs, etc.). Gjallarhorn is obviously a better instrument to debuff with compared to all others. I was shocked that SE thought Brds were using a Daurdabla to debuff with and thought that Brds were contesting whether Daurdabla was a better debuff instrument than Gjallarhorn. We all already know that Gjallarhorn is a better debuff instrument, duh?

Not to mention, you can land Elegy and debuffs pretty easily without Gjallarhorn on a majority of the mobs in this game. SE clearly missed the mark when relaying that information to us... <_<

In fact, Camate's comments about gjallarhorn seems to be in direct response to your comments that daurdabla is better. So I don't think he's saying gjallarhorn is underpowered anymore than you were... if you were. I can't really be certain since your 2 posts seem to be in opposition to one another what you're getting at.

First, the bolded doesn't really make any sense. O.o

I never said Daurdabla was a better Debuffing instrument compared to Gjallarhorn. <.<

I said that Daurdabla was a much more useful instrument as a whole compared to Gjallarhorn as of the lvl 90 Cap. The general gist of my reasoning was that Gjallarhorn only really benefits two songs atm: Ballad and Scherzo. Ballads are hardly needed anymore since they're obsolete in Abyssea, and we can get so much refresh/MP outside of Abyssea. Scherzo is such a situational song that it's not really used too much (very useful though when needed), especially because people who don't have a Daurdabla would have to give up a song like March. Thus, it's better to just use Scherzo with Daurdabla, since it can be used as the third Song and potency difference between a Daurdabla's Scherzo and a Gjallarhorn's Scherzo is quite small.

And as I said before, the skill on Gjallarhorn isn't really needed for Debuffs as of now since Brds can easily debuff most mobs without a Gjallarhorn.

Thus, Gjallarhorn is definitely less useful than a Daurdabla at this stage of the game, and that SE should increase its effectiveness (like they slowly have been for the other Relics, not to mention the Aegis buff) by giving Gjallarhorn its own, exclusive and useful song, whatever that may be. Because even if Gjallarhorn receives "All Songs +4" at the lvl 99 Cap, it's still going to be a rather lackluster instrument.

I'm not really saying statements like "Daurdabla > Gjallarhorn for EVERYTHANG!!" Obviously, it's optimal to use both. <.< But Daurdabla is going to offer way more with its Third Song than Gjallarhorn can right now at the lvl 90 Cap, and is much easier to obtain too.

Yay for basically reposting my Gjallarhorn Buff thread OP x.x Hopefully this kinda spells it out for you. <.<

*As for Gjallarhorn buffing a Third Tier of March, this is rather interesting. March III with Gjallarhorn will have more potency rather than being sung with Daurdabla since it has "All Songs +3" and there is more Wind Skill gear than String skill gear currently available. If you have a Daurdabla and are without a Gjallarhorn... it could possibly be better to sing March III as the third buff with Daurdabla due to all the skill on it... Victory March -> Song #2 -> March III I mean. Idk though, we'll see? Probably not? Who knows... Either way, you'll probably be maxing Magical Haste anyways lol. If you can cap Magical Haste without using Gjallarhorn and with Daurdabla, then it'd probably be best to sing March III with Daurdabla anyways. But this would just makes Daurdabla even more of useful than Gjallarhorn! lol

@Jackalman Sometime I'll compare debuffing with Daurdabla vs. a horn like Faerie Piccolo on something resistant to Lullaby, perhaps high-lvl Spectators in Abys. Uleguerand Range. It won't be much testing... but it won't be like 5 casts lol, I'll report back truthfully too since this is something I'm really interested in myself lol My guess though is that they'll either match eachother or the Horn will pull ahead a lil bit with getting less resists.

[Creelo]

.@Jackalman Sometime I'll compare debuffing with Daurdabla vs. a horn like Faerie Piccolo on something resistant to Lullaby, perhaps high-lvl Spectators in Abys. Uleguerand Range. It won't be much testing... but it won't be like 5 casts lol, I'll report back truthfully too since this is something I'm really interested in myself lol My guess though is that they'll either match eachother or the Horn will pull ahead a lil bit with getting less resists.

So I just finished up some super basic testing on this! And the results were quite surprising! lol Wondering if I should post this to a new thread since it's a little long, but it's relevant here too... Anyways! For those who don't want to read all the specifics, just look for the big bold statements.

Question: Daurdabla vs. Faerie Piccolo, which wins for landing Foe Lullaby, by extension all debuffs?

Target: Decent Challenge Spectator in Abyssea-Uleguerand Range. (Wanted higher lvl, but no one was there, didn't matter though as you'll soon see lol...)

Hypothesis: Thought the Faerie Piccolo would win by at least a little bit, but wouldn't have been surprised if Daurdabla's +40 Skill made the results more even between the two.

Testing:

Relevant Buffs: Got full Abyssea Stat Buffs along with MM/Perfect Attendance/Rescuer Atmas

Gear: (Didn't change gear from this once I started writing the used data, aside from Daurdabla/Faerie Piccolo)
PDT Kila+2/Genbu's Shield/--/Daurdabla and Faerie Piccolo
Genbu's Kabuto/Twilight Torque/Novia Earring/Brutal Earring
Avalon Breastplate(Chr+7)/Melaco Mittens/Dark Ring(Chr+1)/Dark Ring(Chr+1)
Umbra Cape/Goading Belt/Goliard Trews/Dusk Ledelsens+1

Relevant Stats: Chr 91+64 (from Abyssea Buffs) 326 Wind Skill, 326 String Skill, 326 Singing Skill, +0 M.Acc

Different Samples tested over Lightsday and Darksday (Both Daurdabla/Faerie Piccolo were tested during this phase, so the Day shouldn't really matter. The samples were taken on separate days (Made sure of no overlap in the days).)



Lightsday Samples

Daurdabla - 64 Total Casts
-14 Full Duration - 21.875%
-10 Half Duration - 15.625%
-40 Fully Resisted - 62.5%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-64 Total Casts - 100%

Faerie Piccolo - 57 Total Casts (Wanted to get more casts in, but didn't have as many Resists and Day changed)
-29 Full Duration - 50.88~%
-11 Half Duration - 19.30~%
-17 Fully Resisted - 29.82~%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-57 Total Casts - 100%~


Darksday Samples (Only a measly 20 Total Casts each, I was getting Tired x.x)

Daurdabla - 20 Total Casts
-5 Full Duration - 25%
-2 Half Duration - 10%
-13 Fully Resisted - 65%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-20 Total Casts - 100%

Faerie Piccolo - 20 Total Casts
-10 Full Duration - 50%
-4 Half Duration - 20%
-6 Fully Resisted - 30%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-20 Total Casts - 100%


Conclusions!: The sample sizes are extremely small (would need like 1000+ if we really want truly conclusive evidence) but no one can deny... Those are some pretty big differences in Lullaby success rate. <.<
The Daurdabla is absolutely horrid for debuffing, and the Faerie Piccolo most clearly defeated it when it came to getting a better resist rate. Since a Faerie Piccolo is essentially the same as a lvl 1 Flute when it comes to Debuffs... We can pretty much conclude that...
Yes, a lvl 1 Flute is MUCH more accurate when it comes to Debuffs, compared to a lvl 90 Daurdabla.

And...

The difference between Wind and String Instruments for debuffs is at least equivalent to 40 Skill, and probably much more. (We already knew Wind > String for Debuffs but Wow!)

On the Lightsday Sample (the better samples lol), there was roughly a 30%~ Higher rate of landing Lullabies for their full duration with the Faerie Piccolo and a 5%~ higher rate when it came to landing Half Duration Lullabies. Perhaps most importantly, the Faerie Piccolo had roughly 33% LESS FULLY resisted Lullabies. Honestly, I was kinda surprised to the Faerie Piccolo have a 30%~ Fully Resisted Lullaby rate by itself. But a 62.5% Fully Resisted Lullaby rate for the Daurdabla?!?! <____<

The Darksday Samples were very, very small. I was mostly curious to see how they'd line up to the Lightsday samples, and they actually lined up extremely well for only being 20 Casts Each! O.o Basically, the Faerie Piccolo had 25% more Full Duration Lullabies, 10% more Half Duration Lullabies, and 35% fewer Fully Resisted Lullabies.

The difference in success rate between the two is really quite high, even for such low sample sizes. If they weren't so high, we could've disregarded them.

Interesting side-notes were that I used my actual debuff gear in the beginning, but quickly realized I wasn't gonna really get the data I needed due to not really getting any resists with the Daurdabla and Faerie Piccolo (only did several casts each)... So I scratched those samples, quickly changed my gear to mostly PDT, with as little Chr+ as possible. The other side-note was that Carnage Elegy never got resisted with either the Daurdabla or Faerie Piccolo in my testing gear. I didn't cast it nearly as much as Lullaby of course, but it was kinda interesting to see how easy it was able to land even in a nearly full PDT set... <.<

Future testing?? I definitely could've set myself better for testing this when it came to Atmas and Gear, but I still got results. Future testing would involve larger sample sizes (durrr). Perhaps I could use this little bit of data, and test again on a DC Spectator and play around with my gear to see if I can match a resist rate to the Faerie Piccolo using a Daurdabla. The increase in skill/M. Acc could potentially give us a rough idea of what the true accuracy difference is between Wind Instruments and String Instruments.

The reason why this is all important below. I'm not saying SE should suddenly adjust the accuracy of String Instruments when it comes to Debuffs at all! The difference is quite balanced actually, especially for Stringed Horde Lullaby.

Also in response to your feedback about the seeming lack of power of Gjallarhorn, the development team mentioned that there is a difference in song accuracy between Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla, and when casting songs on enemies, Gjallarhorn wins out. During the next version update it will also be possible to further enhance the Gjallarhorn.

Oh, but development team! [SIZE="5"]Why spend roughly 170,000,000 gil on the Gjallarhorn when you can spend 43 gil at the local Music Shop for a lvl 1 Flute that can already land debuffs more consistently than the Daurdabla?[/SIZE]

I do hope the development team feels silly for that quoted statement.

PS: I'll say it again, it was never about Daurdabla vs. Gjallarhorn when it came to debuffs. It's not even really Daurdabla vs. Gjallarhorn for buffs. It's about how easy it is to get a Daurdabla and how much more useful it is overall compared to a Gjallarhorn. Please reread previous posts from the Bard community regarding the lackluster power of Gjallarhorn.

The end! Whew x.x

[Flionheart]

I'm not a fan of the idea that M.Elegy will be a Ghorn only song, but I understand it I guess.

I hope there's an alternative way to get it, like the fake relics with the WS if that's the case.

Also agree completely with what Jackalman said.

Simply put, BRD needs more abilities, and preferably more songs that assist Mages. It's bad when you don't need Ballads due to Atma, so you resort to marching the mages, there should be a fast cast song imo.

I really hope you're not going to keep BRD the way it is at the moment, because in reality it's a pretty boring job how it stands. I personally love the job and I have done since I've levelled it, but I feel like I could be playing many other roles at the same time, and that's a bad thing. BRD was always about being busy and keeping on top of things, but it really doesn't feel like that any more. You buff the DD (And mages if they require it, which is rarely), Debuff the mob... and then become a surrogate WHM for a minute or so, then re-apply buffs/debuffs.

I want to be changing my songs depending on the situation (Which does happen occasionally with Scherzo and carols).

I want to feel like buffing the mages is as much of a priority as buffing the DD.

I want BRD to become hectic.

[Mayoyama]

We have a Job Ability that reduces an area of effect song to a single target. Instead of remodeling songs to be area of effect like someone mentioned, can we expect to see a Job Ability that allows a single target song to expand to an area of effect in a way much like Pianissimo? (I feel that would create less hassle from how we already understand songs like the Preludes and Etudes)

^ This.. seems like a really good idea. I did read someone's suggestion to call it Fortissimo, which would make logical sense. This could potentially adress 2 of the issues Camate mentioned - 1st being preludes being aoe, and 2nd allowing the option of making etudes aoe. Not to mention that everyone likes getting new job abilities (its like getting a present at christmas lol).

Simply put, BRD needs more abilities, and preferably more songs that assist Mages. It's bad when you don't need Ballads due to Atma, so you resort to marching the mages, there should be a fast cast song imo.

I want to feel like buffing the mages is as much of a priority as buffing the DD.

This also is something that has lead me recently to levelling cor... with cor I can at least feel more useful than a proc-and-march biyatch and I can actually give useful buffs to mages other than lolballadinaby. I understand game balance would mean brd buffs for things like fast cast,MAB and pet buffs would probably be scaled down a bit in comparison to the cor equivalents, but would really help spice the job up again. Having the option of being busy with all new buffs for dd, mages and pet jobs (when present) would help return a bit more of the excitement and challenge of the job that has otherwise become rather dull and to be blatently honest sometimes outright boring. It's become a joke with the BRD in my ls that when they apply the 2 buffs to the dds (since mages dont need the ballads) they say 'afk again mbating' coz there really isnt anything else for them to do outside proccing lol.

[Flionheart]

I honestly don't think AOEing prelude is the biggest concern with the job really. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't partied with a ranger lately, let alone more than one. And even if I did, most of them prefer minuet.

[Schrute]

Hi, make a magic attack song(s). We can already give haste songs and attack songs that work for attack and ranged attack, let us play some most excellent tunes for our beloved nukers of the world. Or here is an idea, make it so minuets affect magic attack tooooooo O-O. I like this idea, I play Bard a lot and would love to play more than refresh songs, marches, etudes, and elegy. I WANT TO BE THE DJ HERO ME PLOZ

[Flionheart]

There needs to be more mage friendly songs. Ballads only gets a bit boring. You want Mages to be excited about having a BRD.

[Jackalman]

I'll admit to not knowing about the "song effect duration" being applied to debuffs. I never tested it and don't really use that gear in my debuff set anyway. Seems strange to me, but you seem to know what you're talking about, so I'll take you at your word. I also know that skill does not affect potency. I was not thinking properly when I read it and thought you were referring to resist rates. Since Daurdabla has no +1/2/3 to any songs, it does nothing to actual potency and therefore really shouldn't be used except for the 3rd song buff or if the skill is needed to land a debuff and you don't have a Gjallarhorn. I really just misread what you said and I apologize.

As for me saying "finale and finale", that's what I get for not proofreading. I meant lullaby and finale. I still keep nursemaid's harp on me for occasional use. I use sorrowful harp for threnody still, and I used military harp for finale up until better options were pretty recently added. I always preferred maximum duration to the small chance of having a higher resist rate by not using a wind instrument.

I was assuming SE would gimp massacre elegy somewhat. If they keep it at 100%, then Gjallarorn-only makes sense. In that case, they could make an in-between tier elegy that could be quested for non-Gjallarhorn bards. Just an idea.

I still disagree with 40 skill being worthless compared to simply using a wind instrument. Without looking it up right now, 1 skill is supposed to be worth 0.5 MACC or 0.5 CHR or something. You honestly think that using a level 1 flute compensates for this simply because it is a wind instrument? I can't believe that could possibly be true. Having a +1/2/3 to the song effect only affects potency and duration as you said, not resist rate. However, I assume you have a debuff set with a ton of MACC and CHR, so why should landing songs using a stringed instrument be a problem? Even if you use string gear to maximize your aoe range, this has a significant impact on lowering resist rates as well. Your arguments seem to suggest that we are debuffing naked except for an instrument.

I'm not really sure how my post was "riddled with bits of wrong info and silly logic" since you only called me out on the one thing. We obviously are both coming from the same place here. I'm not trying to criticize, but I'mn stating factual information just as you are. We should probably just meet for a beer and discuss the finer points of bardery.

[Hayward]

I really believe a lot of Bards will retire the job if Massacre Elegy is limited to Gjallarhorn exclusively. What point would there be to continue playing the job otherwise? Knowing this playerbase, you and I know exactly what will happen if a Bard tries to get into an event without it. I could transcribe it word for word, but that isn't necessary. You're reading it in your mind as you read this post.

One thing I'd like to see is a more diverse array of enfeebling songs (Requiem, Elegy, and Threnody isn't quite active enough for my liking). A Terror-based song, maybe? Confusion?