On the Topic of RDM Magics

[Supersun]

I worded what I meant poorly. Like I said, if we had single target versions of all of the sphere spells there wouldn't be a problem. If the mechanic itself shouldn't anchor Rdm to the back. SE so far has been pretty careful adding things that are equally useful to the front and the back (Ie. Gain spells). Really despite all of our melee ideas I know that they are likely going to continue this trend spell-wise with maybe the exception of Enspell T3s (which is why imo Enspell T3s needs to be beast).

We are going to need more then just a small minor tweak to stop our white magic side being almost entirely subbable at 99. Where if Sch and Blm sub Rdm the only thing we can really bring to the table are T2 enspells and enfeebles. Where Brd/Rdm pretty much stomps our supporting ability.

I think you slightly overestimate our current power. Sure we are durable job that can solo well (though I don't think we can necessarily call ourselves the uncontested best soloer anymore), but our situations in parties is not looking so bright. Refresh II isn't enough of a niche to earn us a place by itself considering there are jobs that are much better at it and the matter is only going to get worse and worse as the few remaining things that people are going to invite us into a party for are mostly going to be all subbable by 99.

A 10% better slow over a white mage isn't going to cut it. All of your suggested spells will only enhance our soloing at best. SE is really going to need to run with the enfeebling ball if they want to keep Rdm viable, and like mentioned before a way to mitigate TP attacks is the first thing that needs to be addressed.

That TP move addle idea seems to be pretty popular though. The only problem I see with that is either that new NMs would almost have to be factory made immune to stun or the TP delay wouldn't ever be anything significant.

Even with monsters being immune to stun though it's still a powerful ability. SE can go a bit crazier with their TP attacks knowing that as long as a the TP move addle is up and it adds enough of a delay that players can survive. As long as players are paying attention a spell like this could give players just enough time to gear swap into PDT or MDT gear. That by itself is more powerful then any other spell they can likely add for us to deal with TP attacks, it lets SE go a bit crazier with their TP attacks with that expectation in mind, and, given your connection isn't terrible, adds a new dimension of skill where if you die it's likely because you weren't paying attention and didn't switch your gear.

Also, we have Break though I'm pretty sure I know what you meant.

Edit: I am in agreement wit the cycle elimination. Like I've said before. cycling one spell over and over isn't a fun mechanic. I mean if WoW got rid of Plds cycles within like its first expansion you know there's a problem with the mechanic.

Besides, like mentioned, don't hold something back because you think it's overpowered. An idea itself can't be overpowered and can be worked around to be balanced.

[Seriha]

And not to sound like a douche or anything but theres a 50 some odd page RDM melee thread you can discuss it there. I'd rather not have this thread degenerate to bickering like that thread has.

While I'll say the following and pretty much leave it at that, the melee side does have a legitimate concern in that if being pure caster is too good, then yes, it is the melee death knell. I'm sure there are some sitting there reading this maliciously craving for that just to shut us up, watch us squirm, or whatever, but we've been teetering on that for a long time.




Overall, you should know I'm for longer, potentially better buffs. I feel like Saboteur should function more like Nightengale/Troubador in that for 1m after being used, any enfeeble cast will get the boosted effect instead of being a one-shot. Future debuffs could also come in layering effects, or even current ones tweaked as such so multiple RDMs could buff up and sustain an enfeeble on a given mob much like DNC Steps.

Just gonna copy/paste my old post from the new enfeebling magic thread that came up a while back. Some are pretty basic. Some, maybe not.

(Wind : Black Magic) Confuse: Target temporarily loses access to some spells and TP maneuvers.
INT check determines how many of each are blocked. Lasts up to 3 minutes.

(Water : White Magic) Inhibit: Reduces the power of a target's TP maneuvers and increases their ready time. TP gain is also lessened.
10-25% reductions for power and time based on a MND check. -Store TP and Subtle Blow+ for players would also vary. Lasts up to 3 minutes.

(Fire : Black Magic) Muddle: Reduces the target's Magic Attack and INT.
Variable between 10-30 MATK and 15-30 INT based on INT check. Lasts up to 3 minutes.

(Thunder : White Magic) Shatter: Reduces the target's Magic Defense and MND.
Variable between 10-30 MDEF and 15-30 MND based on MND check. Lasts up to 3 minutes.

(Dark : Black Magic) Spellbind: Reduces target's Magic Evasion and Magic Accuracy.
Variable between 15-30 based on INT checks. Lasts up to 3 minutes.

(Light : Black Magic) Regress: Reduces the target's level.
How many levels will depend on the INT difference, but this would mainly reduce all stats by the amount the players might gain through their own leveling and possibly weakening the strength of job traits if, say, the level down would take a mob from Evasion Bonus IV to III. EXP gain or skill up checks would stay at the mob's default level. Does not wear if landed, but can not be overwritten, either.

(Wind : White Magic) Panic: Target is compelled to run around in a panicked state while losing stamina.
Target will run around randomly in a 15 yalm radius at varying speeds from the point they're inflicted with the spell, losing 1% HP for every tick they're running. They will not attack or cast in this state, but taking damage from anything other than the spell's effect will bring them back to their senses. Can last up to 60 seconds.

(Earth : Black Magic) Bog: Target is knocked back with slight earth damage and their movement speed and evasion is encumbered.
Distance knocked back can be 5-20 yalms. Movement speed reduction can be 10-30% and Evasion -10-20. Damage should be somewhere between Stone II and III. Additional effects can last up to 45 seconds.

(Light : White Magic) Emanate: MP costs of spells cast by the target is distributed to party members and further deducted from the target's MP pool.
For example, if a mob casts a 300 MP spell, a percentage of 10-50% of that cost would be given variably to each party member in range (~15 yalms) resulting in a 180-900 MP loss for a party of 6 on top of the 300 spent to cast the spell. Lasts 2 minutes or 10% of the mob's Max MP.

(Dark : Black Magic) Pain: Physical damage done is reflected upon the target while reducing its ATK by that amount.
INT-based spell that reflects 10-25% of damage a mob does in attack back to it. If a hit does 300 damage, its next swing will be performed with -300 ATK, changing to -150 for the next round if that's how much it did as a result of that, and so on for the duration of the effect, up to 3 minutes.

(Non-Elemental : Black Magic) Ensanguine: Inflicts a powerful DoT that slows a mob's attack speed the lower its HP gets.
Thinking roughly 20-30 a tick with the slow effect being 1/3 the percentage of HP lost. So, a mob with 30% HP left would have a 23% slow. This would stack with other slow sources like Slow II and Elegy. Spell would last up to 120 seconds.



I'll stop for now. Things like Plague are also a bit of a given.

[Rayik]

We already have access to Break...

We do, and it sucks. Not even worth casting on fodder. Almost anything worthwhile I cast it on turns out to be flat out immune, or it wears off instantly. I've had better success with Sleep than this spell. And yes, capped and merited Enfeebling skill with M.Acc gear and atmas.

I wish SE would reevaluate NM's immunity to the bulk of what our specialty is supposed to be. Players are duoing zone bosses with very little difficulty, so why purposely keep giving NM's these broken mechanics? The "challenge" of most NM's is laughable at this point, so why keep shutting us out of contributing to the fight? If something simply requires an obscene amount of M.Acc, then that's fine; at least it's attainable. But every NM being immune to everything but slow/para/blind is really aggravating, and some NM's are even immune/highly resistant to those.

For as much as SE supposedly doesn't want RDM's to wind up as healbots again, they sure have a funny way of showing it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It wears quickly if the mob is getting hit, while only useful on most fodder mobs (it actually lands on some RotZ Nms, I haven't seen it land on any other Nms but haven't really tried) it certainly doesn't wear instantly.

Agreed on the second points but SE did say they were looking into it, going back to old areas and finding shit is flat out immune is aggravating. I've had better luck enfeebling Zone bosses than in Wotg...

[Rayik]

It wears quickly if the mob is getting hit, while only useful on most fodder mobs (it actually lands on some RotZ Nms, I haven't seen it land on any other Nms but haven't really tried) it certainly doesn't wear instantly.

Agreed on the second points but SE did say they were looking into it, going back to old areas and finding shit is flat out immune is aggravating. I've had better luck enfeebling Zone bosses than in Wotg...

Didn't know about it wearing if it's getting hit. That makes sense, as I'm usually in a party with DD's attacking what I cast it on. But, this being the case, what's the point of the spell then? Cast Break and then run away? It's the same effect as Sleep. I know when a mob casts break on me, it takes it's sweet time wearing off, even as the mob pummels me.

[cidbahamut]

Break is more like an earth-based sleep than it is a petrify effect. It's what you use on undead or when all your other crowd control timers are down.

If it had the same potency as it does for mobs I think we'd see hordes of Red Mages running Break cycles on anything that wasn't outright immune to it, so it kind of makes sense in that regard. Doesn't change the fact that it's still dumb how NMs are immune to everything other than Blind/Paralyze/Slow.

[Alkimi]

It's useful for keeping things 'asleep'.

One glaring example is the avatars on new dynamis summoner NMs. Once sleep wears they'll immediately astral flow, but chuck break on before it wakes and you can safely resleep without needing stuff like spellcast to time your spells accurately. Edit: As long as it isn't Garuda or Titan.

It also stacks with Manifestation so is very useful for keeping a large group of mobs 'asleep' safely without them beating you to death the second they wake up.

[Rayik]

It's useful for keeping things 'asleep'.

One glaring example is the avatars on new dynamis summoner NMs. Once sleep wears they'll immediately astral flow, but chuck break on before it wakes and you can safely resleep without needing stuff like spellcast to time your spells accurately. Edit: As long as it isn't Garuda or Titan.

It also stacks with Manifestation so is very useful for keeping a large group of mobs 'asleep' safely without them beating you to death the second they wake up.

Ok, that makes good sense. Thank you for that.

[Merton9999]

Break also keeps mobs "slept" if they have a DOT on them. There's a small chance the DOT will wake it but not 100% like Sleep - I have pretty good luck with this, and it's the biggest reason I like Break. Even just soloing, I can keep Dia/Poison on the mob and still be able to break it for a few seconds if I happen to need a breather to turn and re-apply buffs or cure. Also, I'm never opposed to any additional form of sleep on a separate timer to keep a mob no one is fighting at bay.

I'm a huge fan of Stop as proposed in this thread - stopping time-based effects on the mob rather than the mob itself. It's a great way to inhibit regain, regen, refresh on mobs as mentioned, and goes along with the concept of Addle - NMs are immune to silence so let us go 1/10 of the way. NMs would likely be immune to Amnesia, so let us go part of the way with Stop.

I've also always wanted Reflect in this game. The classic argument against it is the mob will be resistant/immune/absorb the element they cast. So, sorry to say it here, that's why I want a Reflect for SCH that changes the element of the reflected spell into the weather currently on the reflecting player...

[Hyrist]

While I'll say the following and pretty much leave it at that, the melee side does have a legitimate concern in that if being pure caster is too good, then yes, it is the melee death knell. I'm sure there are some sitting there reading this maliciously craving for that just to shut us up, watch us squirm, or whatever, but we've been teetering on that for a long time.

First is that pretty much kills any future hope for Rdm melee as any mage aura spells pretty much anchor us within the aura surrounding the mages.

I disagree with these sentiments.

To be frank, our performance is rather independent of the buffs we would place on any mages. And, as the track record shows with AF3+2s and composure, any streamlining to our casting ability is a benefit to us in the front lines.

We aren't required to be in the back lines to soak up an aura we give them, we have our own versions or Refresh II, etc that we can cast on our selves for longer duration. If anything, an aura independent of casting on ourselves makes it easier for us to front line, and maintain front line buffs, as all we need to do is Aura a Melee with the buff, and soak it up ourselves to keep and eye on it running, or simply to spare us casting it on ourselves.

But I am also keeping in mind that this is done in tandem with separate Melee buffs that would stand on their own merits. Again this was a focus for our mage aspects, which I believe need a serious streamlining, particularly in situations in which the monster dies too quickly to make the constant application of debuffs to be cost effective.

For higher NM struggles, they've already told us we're receiving new debuffs and better resistance checks. I'm awaiting more information on that before I comment further.