Suggestions to Improve/Rebalance Vanadiel's Divas

[Shibayama]

I'm sorry, but that just isn't viable Camate. Even if we're given a new weaponskill and gear that would make ternary worthwhile, then we have 2 other abilities that won't be used because when it comes to weaponskills we will always use the one that is strongest so unless the effect of the other two are heavily rebalanced, there ould be no reason to use them. We can either have one or the other but a new concept needs to be made for ternary or the flourish III category in general.

Honestly if the weaponskill is going to be *so great* that it makes ternary not horrible, then it should be put on hold and implimented when that is going to be put into play so dancer gets some chance to do the new content with a new support ability instead of leaving us with a crappy ability that has no synergy with our current stuff til december. :/

Also I agree with Leyla - you should never add an ability that's worthless until you get a specific peice of gear or weaponskill... even Striking isn't very good.

I'm sorry but Ternary needs to go. No amount of coming on here and saying "Just trust the dev team guys! They know what they're doing!" will make us feel better about this - if you want to see exactly how we feel not only about the ability, but our current status in the game in general and what you can do about it, read the "Ternary Flourish Removal Petition" Thread.

By now, you should be taking our feedback more seriously, not try and patronize us with saying "thanks for all the feedback but the devs have something SUPER SECRET in mind for LATER."

I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, as I know you are just relaying the information to us. But if thats the case then please give the devs this message from us.

We DNC do not need clarification about the manifesto or how these ideas that are not viable now can become viable later. We would like to see some of our support (healing/enfeebling/non-combat buffs) to be implimented. If Ternary is going to be so great with the new weaponskill, then save it for when the weaponskill will be put in the game.

But when you tell them, you have to riverdance. If you don't know how,then you better get learning!
That is my homework for you Camate!

[Sira]

And then THFs feel compelled to merit Assassin's Charge 5/5 (still with a longer recast than DNC has), assuming you don't make it a DNC only WS, in which case, THF had better get something that compliments SA/TA or the like.

im for having a new job specific ws, still somewhat griping that thf and brd has 2 job specific ws, and dnc only has 1.

[Darkvalkyr]

I'm just stumped. Even though I'm a DNC, I look at my THF friend and wonder what he has that I can't match as far as dagger DPS goes bar TH, and realize we're not so different. And I have support abilities and heals.

Why all the DD buffing for Dancer? Why can't we get support and give Thief some DD love instead?

I'm not gonna go "QQ SE, give THF STUFF!" but it IS true that Thief isn't getting anything much in damage and gets weird gimmicky stuff, while dancer - initially a frontline damage/healer hybrid gets a lot more DD and less support/gimmicks and becomes very close to beating THF in damage (and in some cases beating THF outright). I'm saying this as a Dancer concerned for the other dagger job and my job not doing much what I envisioned it to be.

[Nightfyre]

The meaning behind the above concept is not we want dancers to “go solo!”
Dancer is without a doubt a complex job, but what we mean to say is that we will be making adjustments enabling dancers to fight solo as well as support parties.

What dancers do now is "go solo!" and they do it just fine. Focus on making them relevant in parties again.

I really don't understand why the devs keep beating around the bush when much of the problem could be solved by splitting Waltz timers odd/even, ie Waltz I/III/V in a "Waltz I" category, II/IV in a "Waltz II" category, and Healing Waltz in "Waltz III" since the recast on that is just flat-out appalling.

However, what if we were to implement a weapon skill that matched this nicely as well as equipment that enhances the stats of Ternary Flourish, just like the other abilities?

Equipment is good. WS... I'll believe it when I see it, you'd need unique mechanics to make it work. Byrth already covered this in detail.

[Asymptotic]

What sort of enhancements are they thinking of to improve the power of Ternary? It's something they should reveal to us so we can help decide if it's even worthwhile. Don't just do it, have it be pointless, and then require another update cycle to make the ability worth anything.

As it stands, the only way I can possibly think of making Ternary useable is as follows:

Ternary Flourish: Consumes 5 Finishing moves. Allows your next hit to perform a triple attack. Additional Effect: Improves the nearby party's Double Attack rate. (Recast 2:30, Duration 2:30)

You could also make it "Triple Attack" rate if you're feeling particularly adventurous. But I think DA is more fitting with the DNC concept: The DNC, always the diva, is the star of the show with a triple attack, and allows everyone to perform double attacks.

You could start the bonus to party members at 25% or so and have it decay to something around 10% over the duration of the buff. The duration is designed to allow a DNC to "ride" ternary flourish as a supportive character, since we're obviously not going to be using Ternary as it currently stands to maximize our DD potential. It also somewhat makes up for not using Saber Dance when fate necessitates you act in a healing role.

The power of the ability, as described here, is upped significantly, and as such I increased the cost of the ability to 5 finishing moves.

As for your the ability you wanted further comment on, I think it's going to be hard to get anything out of anyone because everyone is raging over Ternary, but I'll repost my suggestion from earlier in the thread:

If you're serious about a TP-draining area-of effect style buff, please consider making a variety of effects that DNC can bestow this way.

Potential Enhancements to Consider
1.) Regain
2.) Critical Hit Rate + Critical Attack Bonus
3.) Double Attack Rate + Triple Attack Rate
4.) Other? Something defensive? Probably won't get used.

Originally, I suggested:
Backup Dance (Dancer level 95, Recast 5 minutes, duration 5 minutes or until the DNC has 0 TP). Sacrifices TP to regenerate surrounding Party members' TP. ---Consumes 100 TP to give the dancer a "Sphere" effect that drains the DNC's TP by 2/tic to give party members a 2TP/tic regain effect as long as they are nearby.

Instead, make this a new category of dance, like Sambas, and increase DNC's ability to support the party similar to the manner in which BRD+COR are able to enhance the party. Consider, however, that this will constantly drain the DNC's TP so the effect should be fairly potent to make up for it. And yes, they should stack with sambas.

Category: Backup Dances

1.) Rousing Cheer (DNC Level 92)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive the effect of Regain. Drains 2/TP tic from the DNC, and part members regenerate 2TP/Tic. The cost of this ability is set less than the others because the DNC will see no benefit from this ability.

2.) Tenacious Cheer (DNC Level 95)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to critical hit rate and critical attack bonus (including the DNC). Drains 3 TP/tic. This should be at least 5% each, but I think 10% is more fair for the cost. Still significantly weaker than Blood Rage, which is intentional.

3.) Frenzied Cheer (DNC Level 99)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to their double and triple attack rates. Drains 4-5/tic. 10% double attack and 5% triple attack.


Balance the ability by making it wear off if TP reaches 0 and give it a somewhat long recast (3-5 minutes?). You can even make it not have any effect when solo if that's a balancing issue you're worried about.

Thank you for your response, please know that it's not you we're Diva-raging at, it's the development team, which seems to have "lost its way" somewhat with the Dancer class.

[Deadvinta]

In my opinion the entire skill isn't worth the steps. It prevents the use of it or any other Flourish III for two minutes.

I personally still don't understand what Charis Casaque +1/+2 does for Striking Flourish. Accuracy buff?

[Asymptotic]

In my opinion the entire skill isn't worth the steps. It prevents the use of it or any other Flourish III for two minutes.

I personally still don't understand what Charis Casaque +1/+2 does for Striking Flourish. Accuracy buff?

Approximately 25%/50% critical hit rate boost respectively to both the primary hit and double attack added by striking flourish. Also applies to Weapon Skills, regardless of whether or not they can Crit natively.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Camate. After all, Blue Mages thought BLU Double Attack was 10% forever.

[Zirael]

I'm just stumped. Even though I'm a DNC, I look at my THF friend and wonder what he has that I can't match as far as dagger DPS goes bar TH, and realize we're not so different. And I have support abilities and heals.

Why all the DD buffing for Dancer? Why can't we get support and give Thief some DD love instead?

I'm not gonna go "QQ SE, give THF STUFF!" but it IS true that Thief isn't getting anything much in damage and gets weird gimmicky stuff, while dancer - initially a frontline damage/healer hybrid gets a lot more DD and less support/gimmicks and becomes very close to beating THF in damage (and in some cases beating THF outright). I'm saying this as a Dancer concerned for the other dagger job and my job not doing much what I envisioned it to be.

Thieves have been asking this question pretty much since lv76, if not earlier.
If Devs are so keen on buffing a Triple Attack JA, there's already one in need of attention, if Dev's have forgotten already:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Assassin%27s_Charge
If there's a Triple Attack buff to be had, a native Triple Attacker (THF) with a serious need of DD capability adjustments would like to take part in it.
Dancers have already two ways of making a Crit-Rudra (+5 aftermath/crit hits afterwards, etc), what they lack, is a party support ability in situations where Haste Samba does nothing (since everyone is pretty much at delay reduction cap already). Making yet another T3 Flourish when there are already two potent offensive ones present makes no sense. How about a flourish that halves next n Waltzes recast, where n is number if Finishing Moves present? Or something...

[autobot]

Now then, in regards to Ternary Flourish.

I can definitely understand your uneasiness about using Ternary Flourish since it is in the Flourish III group, considering how Climatic Flourish goes together very well with Rudra’s Storm and Abyssea areas (specifically talking about Atma here), and also using Striking Flourish with Charis Casaque +1/+2.

However, what if we were to implement a weapon skill that matched this nicely as well as equipment that enhances the stats of Ternary Flourish, just like the other abilities?

We aren’t really at the stage where I can say too much, but we are currently working towards making adjustments to other jobs as well as adding new weapon skills and equipment that make the real power of this effect shine. With this in mind we appreciate your understand and hope to hear feedback on this.

First off who actually uses striking flourish now that Climactic actually does something good? And when it was better than climactic even then it didnt really do anything unless you got lucky and it did crit which was few and far between.

Second unless you have Rudra's Storm climactic isnt really good for anything as the crits do not apply to multi-hit weaponskills so it doesnt make evisceration or dancing edge any better. So climactic is Rudra's or bust.

Third now you want to add another ability for another weaponskill which will only be worth using if its better than climactic and striking flourish plus makes all past weaponskills, namely rudra's which took people lots of patience (and luck) to get worthless.

Fourth in the process of releasing yet more gear that DNC's will need to carry along to make another ability worth using you therefore make the AF3 head and body piece worthless if either one of those is replaced by new enhancing gear. Otherwise we are still left with inventory space -1.

What is the point in adding a new ability make other abilities worthless? This is just plain stupid.

DNC is supposed to be situational. It's situational down to which samba we use, which step we use, fan or sabre dance is used, and how we use our finishing moves. Now DNC is becoming a job where it's which ability does better and everything else is out the window.

While you are at it why not remove assassin so trick attack becomes worthless without sneak attack again. Or make it so BRD cant stack songs of the same type (i.e. paeon x2).

To be plain and simple about the whole situation take a look at the DNC forums on here, and pretty much everywhere and the response is the same, we dont want Ternary Flourish. If you implement it no one will use it. Take a look at the endless ideas we all have about the job and try to learn something. And if you should listen to anyone, Byrth would be the player, that dude is like a DNC encyclopedia. BELIEVE HIM!

[Kari]

However, what if we were to implement a weapon skill that matched this nicely as well as equipment that enhances the stats of Ternary Flourish, just like the other abilities?

1> It would have to have a PRETTY DAMN GOOD effect to be able to be worth using. Also, making it worth using will effectively make Climactic and Striking Flourishes useless. Please remember, making 3 Flourishes in the same category that are all meant to do damage results in the DNC only using the best one at all times.
2> If Ternary was changed to be a different effect, it would also have to be pretty amazing, as most DNCs will still use Climactic for a WS. Unless the flourish was changed to be a really short cooldown.
3> Remember that, every Step we perform takes time away from our auto-attacks, lowering TP gain, DPS, etc. The same can be said about any JA we use. A fair amount of our Flourishes aren't worth the time stepping + flourishing, nor the TP wasted to perform them, and such.
4> Stop giving us abilities that suck without modifications to them. If you intend on doing this, give us the items that modify them in the same update, instead of giving us a useless ability tied to useful ability timers. [This can be said about every job, give us something we can use immediately or don't bother.]