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  1. #11
    Player Razushu's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    819
    Character
    Razushu
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamasala View Post
    I think I got the most advanced view of the job you can find. So if you got a few moments to read it, here it is.


    1. Main job

    Summoner as a main job, has only two choices of play style. One is to go up and melee along with your pet, the other is to stand at a safe distance and let your pet do all the work. In other words, there is an active and a passive choice to play. I advocate active play, because I enjoy it.

    2. Melee role

    The melee role is very similar to PLD, DRK and BLU. Because you have reliance on MP, you'd easily feel the need to be constantly refreshed. But since you have anti-refresh, called perpetuation, the job is more advanced than all of those jobs. You will most certainly need to regain MP from another source than refresh. Spirit Taker, Myrkr, Siphon, Convert are all good ideas to have if you intend on meleeing. Which is why melee is very rare at low levels and new Summoners easily get the impression we do not belong in melee range. When you finally get these tools, you are usually so behind in skill that you'll get the impression that melee will never work.

    There are two goals with melee on SMN.
    A) To replenish MP
    B) To fill up dead time with action

    I consider additional damage from melee to be more of a bonus than the actual cause to melee. That is however my opinion with no staff having over 60ish DMG rating among the ones I tend to swing. If I get my hands on an Empyrean I might give a revised opinion, though I won't consider it "standard mage gear" for a Summoner.

    3. Armor sets.

    My current armor set for meleeing is not that impressive, but it is a work in progress.

    Pole Grip: 2% DA
    Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
    Selenian Cap: Accuracy +13, Pet haste +5%
    Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
    Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
    Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
    Caller's Doublet +2: Perp -4
    Caller's Bracers +2: Perp halved, Avatar accuracy up
    Evoker's Ring: Perp -1
    Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
    Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
    Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
    Stearc Subligar: +1 Refresh
    Caller's Pgch. +2: Perp -3

    Totalish:
    -8 Perpetuation + "half of leftovers"
    39 Accuracy
    7% DA
    4% Haste
    -7 Attack

    Nothing amazing, but it is worth observing it also gives 5% pet haste, and is designed for you to keep the pet out with you for low cost. There is also my "I don't care about perpetuation" set:

    Danger Grip: Accuracy +5, Attack +5
    Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
    Hakke hachimaki: Accuracy +17, Attack +5
    Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
    Yinyang robe: +1 refresh
    Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
    Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
    Nashira Gages: 1% Haste, Perp -1
    Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
    Blood Ring: Accuracy +5
    Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
    Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
    Hydra Brais: Accuracy +10
    Nashira Crackows: 1% Haste

    So totalish:
    63 Accuracy
    6% Haste
    7% DA
    3 Attack
    -2 Perp

    I'm as said, still working on what is a good setup. I'm not sure if 60 accuracy for a B rank weapon with 16 skill from merits is low, ok, or high. But it does work well for skilling up. This could obviously be improved by a better body, better feet and better hands. Less obvious if I should trade some accuracy for DA and haste. (If I ever bought ASA)


    Now follows the second half of my Summoner "how to" opinions.

    1. Sub jobs

    If you don't mind relying on sub job, you can do many weird things that I consider simply un-summoner-like. You can for example sub WHM, keep a haste rotation and cure and -na party members. This is what many people think is the correct way to play, while it is simply ONE way to play.

    My argument for it being an unnatural way to play, is that you could do this on other jobs also. BLU/WHM would do the same thing... but you don't see people play this way. DRK/WHM would also work... but you don't see people play this way. (I might be overplaying the potency of aspir for a DRK to go a longer time though.) You can also go PLD/WHM and do this... and again, people don't do this. For some reason BLU's want to melee, DRKs want to melee, and PLDs want to "melee" (but call it tank). Which is why the natural order of things is for a SMN to melee as well, it just suffers from a few issues at early levels, that manifest themselves at later levels.

    That said, there is nothing wrong with playing SMN/WHM if you want to. SMN/RDM for keeping a refresh cycle is also allowed. It simply moves the focus from SMN to /XXX.

    Some subjobs do however keep the focus on the SMN. Like COR sub to enhance your avatars (mostly useless combination), or SAM sub to gain TP faster while meleeing.

    2. WHM the universal subjob

    Sometimes it pays to be versatile. With WHM sub you actually do not just open up the choice to be a sub job based healer/support, you also have the option of accessing Cataclysm for dealing AOE melee damage. In addition you also got travel spells for moving around faster.

    3. Last words

    The most important part is that you like the way you play. After that it is mostly up to if you hang around with people who play for fun, or only play to finish content as fast as possible.

    When I empyrean farm with the LS, it is the latter the counts, so no Summoner melee. If it just is some random thing we are doing, I might take the opportunity to whack the mob some. Usually I'm /WHM for versatility, because /SAM is often not flexible enough for my evenings.
    You're aware that BLU, DRK and PLD are all frontline DDs this is the "for some reason" you mentioned. You wouldn't usually see a DRK or blu going /whm and healing, because quite frankly they're far more useful as a melee. It's really not the natural order of things for SMN to melee, sure like every other job SMN can get a melee set. However the complete lack of melee traits and overall general squishiness make it less useful in this role, one would say to the point where it wasn't intended to do it much from the get go.

    As far as weird things go melee is far weirder than using your subjob to help support yourself/party. The focus only switches to your subjob if you let it. As a support I DD, buff and heal all with my avatars before I even start using my /spells. One could argue that subjob becomes as much a part of the job as the main, and it's foolishness to try to keep them seperate because you want to show melee in a favorable light. Even though while your doing this you're stating all the nice things subjobs give your melee. It's almost like you're biased... almost.

    Both styles have their place, there's no sense in claiming to have the most "advanced" view and then skew the argument in favor of your preferred style.
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    Summoner [suhm-uhn-er]

    1. Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
    2. Not a melee

  2. #12
    Player Razushu's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    819
    Character
    Razushu
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Korpg View Post
    Think of it like this:

    <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
    ^Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A little more just to ge^
    Dallas styleGot to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A littleRaz style

    Your style is always in between the two. Between the two extremes. I find myself:

    <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
    Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.^
    Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.here

    I'm very independent, but the few times I am in a party, I'm able to contribute my weight in gold. I mostly solo while I'm a SMN, and I strive to be a great SMN soloist.
    Even though I feel I'm right around the same point as you on the scale. I'm going to allow this, because I like you.

    Also bolded is what i try for on SMN.
    (0)

    Summoner [suhm-uhn-er]

    1. Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
    2. Not a melee

  3. #13
    Player Malamasala's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Korpg View Post
    Malamasala is obviously an extreme on the Dallas part of the spectrum.

    I don't understand how he is able to keep avatars out and lose the damage from BPs by meleeing and having melee specific atmas on.

    But then again, that is what they want. They must do the 2-7k extra damage by meleeing alone by what my avatars do with MAB atmas. And I don't die as often as they do either! And I fight harder NMs too!
    Nah, I just never have any luck with my pacts for damage. Example:

    Atma of the Ultimate
    Atma of Hell's Guardian
    Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity

    Soulscourge
    Caller's Horn +2
    Eidolon Pendant
    Smn. Earring
    Gifted Earring
    Caller's Doublet +2
    Smn. Bracers +1
    Evoker's Ring
    Diverter's Ring
    Caller's Spats +2
    Caller's Pgch. +2
    Tiresia's cape
    Diabolos's Rope (Not had time to do dynamis bastok yet, not that interested in spending 3 mil on AH, even if I have 16 mil I'm not doing anything with)

    All of the above, and I usually do 3k damage with my magical nukes on any NM weak to magic, and 1k damage if they are resistant to magic. I'm usually just O_o regarding the results from that gear choice. I've seen 6k, on VT normal mobs, during empyrean armor latent trigger.

    Those magical 7k more damage you are doing, I just don't understand. Only guess I can do is that you've lucked out on multiple +3-5 MAB augmented armor pieces, that somehow changed 3k to 12k damage.

    Feel free to tell me which armor pieces I'm using wrong for my nukes, or why my +100 MAB atmas isn't giving any results.


    --------------

    Hmm, kind of noticed there that I'm giving up 2% chance at proc to get more summoning skill in on hands slot. That might be a reason I'm losing some damage, though I can't see how I'd lose more than 3k per pact.
    (0)
    Last edited by Malamasala; 07-23-2011 at 02:48 AM.

  4. #14
    Player Malamasala's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    It's almost like you're biased... almost.
    More like anti-biased. I'm much less pro-melee, than I'm anti-healer. And after I've ruled out healing... melee is what is left on the table.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player Korpg's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,196
    Character
    Kingnobody
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 94
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamasala View Post
    Nah, I just never have any luck with my pacts for damage. Example:

    Atma of the Ultimate
    Atma of Hell's Guardian (Replace with Beyond, and your Heavenly Strike damage will skyrocket, and Gales for Wind Blade)
    Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity

    Soulscourge
    Caller's Horn +2
    Eidolon Pendant
    Smn. Earring
    Gifted Earring
    Caller's Doublet +2
    Smn. Bracers +1
    Evoker's Ring
    Diverter's Ring
    Caller's Spats +2
    Caller's Pgch. +2
    Tiresia's cape
    Diabolos's Rope (Not had time to do dynamis bastok yet, not that interested in spending 3 mil on AH, even if I have 16 mil I'm not doing anything with)

    All of the above, and I usually do 3k damage with my magical nukes on any NM weak to magic, and 1k damage if they are resistant to magic. I'm usually just O_o regarding the results from that gear choice. I've seen 6k, on VT normal mobs, during empyrean armor latent trigger.

    Those magical 7k more damage you are doing, I just don't understand. Only guess I can do is that you've lucked out on multiple +3-5 MAB augmented armor pieces, that somehow changed 3k to 12k damage.

    Feel free to tell me which armor pieces I'm using wrong for my nukes, or why my +100 MAB atmas isn't giving any results.


    --------------

    Hmm, kind of noticed there that I'm giving up 2% chance at proc to get more summoning skill in on hands slot. That might be a reason I'm losing some damage, though I can't see how I'd lose more than 3k per pact.
    Other than the bolded, your BP gear is kindof like mine, but with some other stuff that I'm not on the game atm to say what.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Razushu's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    819
    Character
    Razushu
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamasala View Post
    More like anti-biased. I'm much less pro-melee, than I'm anti-healer. And after I've ruled out healing... melee is what is left on the table.
    Fair enough. although that is biased lol. In between BPs I play support, it usually seems to prove itself too useful and leave me too busy to consider something like melee.

    Don't take this the wrong way, this is an honest question no disrespect intended. Why do you play a job that is designed for backline, DD/support(which generally will nclude at least back up healing) when you seem to prefer a melee playstyle? Would a different more powerful, accepted melee job not appeal to you more?

    Apologies in advance if this is in any way taken up wrong. I'm merely curious.
    (0)

    Summoner [suhm-uhn-er]

    1. Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
    2. Not a melee

  7. #17
    Player Malamasala's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Korpg View Post
    Other than the bolded, your BP gear is kindof like mine, but with some other stuff that I'm not on the game atm to say what.
    Actually I use that. Accidentally mixed it up with the MAB atmas I use for Aeolean Edge. If you happen to find your magic armors, it would be nice to hear it.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Malamasala's Avatar
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    Don't take this the wrong way, this is an honest question no disrespect intended. Why do you play a job that is designed for backline, DD/support(which generally will nclude at least back up healing) when you seem to prefer a melee playstyle? Would a different more powerful, accepted melee job not appeal to you more?
    Well, it is a really funny story.

    FF5 made me like the MNK+SMN job combo. Later FFs made me lean towards the SMN job more. It peaked at FF10, where I could control my own pet. So that was what I was hoping for in FF11.

    First step was testing the job system. Original idea, re-do the MNK+SMN job combo. Quickly I learned SMN/MNK wouldn't be particularly good. So I was thinking I'll just go for SMN. Much main healing and very little avatars later, PUP came around.

    This really threw me for a loop, since PUP was just what I wanted, but with the most ugly pets I've ever seen. But since SE seemed to suggest a C ranker like PUP should melee, then it opened up the idea that then a B ranker like SMN can as well. And it was pretty fun to melee on SMN as well.

    I'm still slightly pondering to leech up PUP, but it is so much skilling up involved on pets. But a dat swap on automatons and it would be a pretty good job. It is a shame I don't have a correct dat swap method to get animations right though.



    I also prefer more to explore new paths than follow the latest cookie cutter build. Like in Diablo 2 I could attempt to build a Paladin with support focus, instead of the basic Hammerdin for plowing through all monsters. That was a real failure though, since all people on battle.net are "rush rush, ball runs!" so I never really had any to support, and if I did support them it meant I wasn't close to the item drops.

    If SE had given me all the facts and jobs from the start though, I believe I would have been a PUP. The most uncertainty with this is that the puppets are so ugly. I picked mithra because it was cutest, picking PUP then is like undoing my first choice.
    (0)

  9. #19
    Player Razushu's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    819
    Character
    Razushu
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamasala View Post
    Well, it is a really funny story.

    FF5 made me like the MNK+SMN job combo. Later FFs made me lean towards the SMN job more. It peaked at FF10, where I could control my own pet. So that was what I was hoping for in FF11.

    First step was testing the job system. Original idea, re-do the MNK+SMN job combo. Quickly I learned SMN/MNK wouldn't be particularly good. So I was thinking I'll just go for SMN. Much main healing and very little avatars later, PUP came around.

    This really threw me for a loop, since PUP was just what I wanted, but with the most ugly pets I've ever seen. But since SE seemed to suggest a C ranker like PUP should melee, then it opened up the idea that then a B ranker like SMN can as well. And it was pretty fun to melee on SMN as well.

    I'm still slightly pondering to leech up PUP, but it is so much skilling up involved on pets. But a dat swap on automatons and it would be a pretty good job. It is a shame I don't have a correct dat swap method to get animations right though.



    I also prefer more to explore new paths than follow the latest cookie cutter build. Like in Diablo 2 I could attempt to build a Paladin with support focus, instead of the basic Hammerdin for plowing through all monsters. That was a real failure though, since all people on battle.net are "rush rush, ball runs!" so I never really had any to support, and if I did support them it meant I wasn't close to the item drops.

    If SE had given me all the facts and jobs from the start though, I believe I would have been a PUP. The most uncertainty with this is that the puppets are so ugly. I picked mithra because it was cutest, picking PUP then is like undoing my first choice.
    The PUP C rank was a serious F' up though, I think SE thought people would accept a PUP based solely on their automaton.

    I'd level PUP if I we're you. I'm not saying GTFO SMN you crazy meleeing fool. Just from what little I know of you and what I know of PUP I think you'd love it. Ugly pets aside, although PUP armor looks nice on Mithras.

    My friends keep suggesting it to me saying "it's SMN but a melee". Which I always found weird because I've said since day one that I find melee boring lol.

    Avoiding the cookie cutter is what got me into SMN in the first place. I liked the idea of SMN from other FFs, it really seemed like the job for me. Then I found out it wasn't very popular with other players, and my stubbornn streak kicked inXD
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    Summoner [suhm-uhn-er]

    1. Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
    2. Not a melee

  10. #20
    Player Malamasala's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Just from what little I know of you and what I know of PUP I think you'd love it.
    The selling point is definitely H2H. The only weapon type I consider interesting. And don't let any PUP tell you they should have gotten Alexander... that dat swap just fills your screen so much that it is annoying.
    (0)

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