Completely gut and rework WS accessibility

[Rayik]

I have a proposal. Whatever system SE used to come up with which jobs get what Weapon Skills, at this point, is completely out-dated and indefensible. The accessibility of native job's Weapon Skills needs to be completely reworked, and the restrictions lifted.

In a nutshell, here's my proposal; skill level-based Weapon Skills should be usable by any job that can reach the required level to use the skill, with the EXCEPTIONS being Weapon Skills unlocked via Empyean, Mythic, Relic, and Trial (Blue !! Proc) means. Weapons Skills earned through skill level (i.e. Red Lotus Blade, Earth Crusher, etc) should be usable by any job who can attain the appropriate level of skill with that weapon.

Seriously, it's ridiculous. Why is it that the main healer of the party(WHM) can use a devastating club Weapon Skill, Hexa-Strike, that a Paladin, a front-line job with a HIGHER skill level in the weapon, cannot? Why is it that a Warrior can use magic/elemental Weapons Skills like Red Lotus Blade, Sanguine Blade, etc, and a job that's main weapon IS a sword, and USES magic, cannot? What is the possible explanation for this? Game balance?

In doing this, yes, many more jobs would gain access to Red !! proc Weapon Skills. By golly, you might see shouts for more than the same 4 jobs from people looking to fight NM's... It makes no sense to me that jobs such as DRK get access to superior Weapon Skill for weapons they do not use, such as sword, over jobs like RDM, who's main weapon(when not stuck in the backline pretending to be WHM) is in fact, a sword.

If there is a logical explanation for the way the system currently works, I would love to hear it.

[Rayik]

Really, if a Dev could come in here and explain why certain jobs have certain Weapon Skills, and others don't, I'd be happy with that much. RDM gets Aoelian Edge(dagger), and not Sanguine Blade(sword), meanwhile we get Magian swords and not daggers... Um, ok...

[Vold]

They probably did it to encourage using different sub jobs. A rdm gets those sword weapon skills with war sub for example. And I prefer exclusive weapon skills to stay exclusive. Hexa to whm. Swift blade to PLD. DE to THF onl.... Yeah ok whatever DNC. You only got it because SE lacked imagination on an exclusive WS for you. Etc examples.

Sure, I agree. RDM should have those weapon skills as standard. But will you ever sub a melee job on RDM after you got them? Probably not short of THF or DRK if the BLM isn't leveled for stun/comes with warp. And that's probably why you won't see things adjusted in this department. But on the other hand what's right is right, and it is right for a RDM to have all native sword weapon skills.

[Rayik]

They probably did it to encourage using different sub jobs. A rdm gets those sword weapon skills with war sub for example. And I prefer exclusive weapon skills to stay exclusive. Hexa to whm. Swift blade to PLD. DE to THF onl.... Yeah ok whatever DNC. You only got it because SE lacked imagination on an exclusive WS for you. Etc examples.

Sure, I agree. RDM should have those weapon skills as standard. But will you ever sub a melee job on RDM after you got them? Probably not short of THF or DRK if the BLM isn't leveled for stun/comes with warp. And that's probably why you won't see things adjusted in this department. But on the other hand what's right is right, and it is right for a RDM to have all native sword weapon skills.

Good points. I can see how it gives job some variety, but at the very least I think it's in dire need of revision.

Yes, I can sub a melee job and get access to those ws's, but my point is the player shouldn't have to, when comparable jobs get them natively. The bulk of any jobs damage output with one-handed weapons comes from Dual-Wielding, but for RDM you have to choose to either Dual-Wield with crappy ws's, or single-hand it and have better ws's(and horrid TP generation). The way the ws's are distributed just seems sort of random and half-assed, like the way RDM's best ws's are with daggers, yet it's Mythic, Empyrean, Magian, and most job specific weapons are swords. Getting Shield Mastery with a F skill in Shield is a funny one too, but that's a whole other thing.

If there was more of a standard for DRK's(a job that gets the best sword ws's) to use swords, for example, I would gladly use sword on that job too, but the game itself works against it(2H bonuses, Desperate Blows, etc.). It just seems very sloppy to me; I'm just asking the Devs to clean things up and make things a bit more consistent. I'm not asking for new gear or JA's, just fix what we have.

[Razushu]

Yes, I can sub a melee job and get access to those ws's, but my point is the player shouldn't have to, when comparable jobs get them natively. The bulk of any jobs damage output with one-handed weapons comes from Dual-Wielding, but for RDM you have to choose to either Dual-Wield with crappy ws's, or single-hand it and have better ws's(and horrid TP generation). The way the ws's are distributed just seems sort of random and half-assed, like the way RDM's best ws's are with daggers, yet it's Mythic, Empyrean, Magian, and most job specific weapons are swords. Getting Shield Mastery with a F skill in Shield is a funny one too, but that's a whole other thing.

I think that was done on purpose, as a mage/melee hybrid you have to chose between higher DPS or better WS. I'd say they'll fix shield skill sooner or later, it's pretty silly as is.

If there was more of a standard for DRK's(a job that gets the best sword ws's) to use swords, for example, I would gladly use sword on that job too, but the game itself works against it(2H bonuses, Desperate Blows, etc.). It just seems very sloppy to me; I'm just asking the Devs to clean things up and make things a bit more consistent. I'm not asking for new gear or JA's, just fix what we have.

Looking at who WS and weapon skill levels are awarded to jobs to sort of reflect how someone would learn things in real life(I'm aware magic doesn't exist fyi), but if you divide your focus over multiple topics you'll learn lots of each although never as much as someone who focuses on less topics. I think it is fairly consistent as is.

In the example of RDM, a RDM is someone who spends their time divided up between learning to fence, use black magic and learning to heal. As a result of this divided focus they never reach the peak of any one of these fields but have decent knowledge of all. This means they never learn the most powerful techniques of them, but will have a variety of skills.

When looked at against a DRK, someone who has focused on offense and has only dabbled in black magic themselves and completely ignored healing magics. As they are more focused on fewer skills(in this case the martial arts) they will be better with any weapons they've picked up.

[Malamasala]

Seriously, it's ridiculous. Why is it that the main healer of the party(WHM) can use a devastating club Weapon Skill, Hexa-Strike, that a Paladin, a front-line job with a HIGHER skill level in the weapon, cannot?

My guess is that if PLD and WHM both had Hexa strike, everyone would go "Why are you meleeing on WHM? The PLD can do Hexa Strike!" SE probably just wanted to toss a hint that they'd like to see WHMs meleeing.

I'm more confused why they gave them both the club and staff EX-skills. Would have made more sense to make WHM the club master, and then SMN the staff master.

[Razushu]

My guess is that if PLD and WHM both had Hexa strike, everyone would go "Why are you meleeing on WHM? The PLD can do Hexa Strike!" SE probably just wanted to toss a hint that they'd like to see WHMs meleeing.

I'm more confused why they gave them both the club and staff EX-skills. Would have made more sense to make WHM the club master, and then SMN the staff master.

PLD gets all the good sword and Great Sword WS because they're based on knights pretty much. WHM gets all the good club and staff WS, because they seem to be influenced by the D&D cleric class. Which was a melee healer that could only use blunt weapons. So it makes pretty perfect sense to make them masters of the blunt weapons. BLM, SMN, SCH etc. don't get all the WS of they're class because they we're implemented as mages pure and simple. The exception to this is RDM who is missing the heavy hitting WS natively(whether right or wrong) for balance issues. As in if they're DDing they have to choose between big WS numbers or higher DPS.

[Kristal]

In the example of RDM, a RDM is someone who spends their time divided up between learning to fence, use black magic and learning to heal. As a result of this divided focus they never reach the peak of any one of these fields but have decent knowledge of all. This means they never learn the most powerful techniques of them, but will have a variety of skills.

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

[Rayik]

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

What's hilarious, is that RDM gets some of the dagger elemental WS, and not sword. What the Flying Fuuuu..............

[Razushu]

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

By that logic jobs without elemental magic shouldn't get access to elemental WS. WS distribution tends to be based on the questions, Is this weapon a focus of the job? Or do we[the devs] feel it is balanced to give them these skills natively? RDM isn't a single focus job it's a 3-way hybrid and lack of top tier in any one field is just a pitfall of this style. As it stands they seem to want RDM to have to choose between high DPS(/NIN) and access to better WS(/WAR etc.).

RDM is fine as a light DD/support role. I'd happily party with one. The biggest obstacle to RDM melee is community viewpoint. If we had more RDMs that could melee while providing support where needed, this viewpoint would change.

On Red lotus blade I could agree with you. But Seraph /Sanguine blade are light/dark element which RDM doesn't really have access to. Plus in the case of Sanguine blade it's highest level WS sword skill gets you. Seeing how RDM is a "part-time" melee it makes no sense that they should learn the strongest attacks with a weapon.