[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM Suggestions

[Greatguardian]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

[Rayik]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

You are absolutely correct, which brings us back to page 1. WHM should not be a stronger melee than RDM, period. But they are, so we'd like a fix.

[Hyrist]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

No actually, Thf and Blu are the perfect examples for the exact reason why I'm pushing for a Utility in the front lines, Guardian.

Collect the points together. I said that Red Mage would require a utility to explain the areas in which it would be allowed to melee. This was what I was referring to. The power of the utility of course would dictate what mobs a Red Mage was allowed on, of course, but it would expand it beyond what you would constered the current accepted state.

i think he means all 3. like a checklist. if any 1 is no, you abort mission.

I'm glad someone is getting the point at least. Yes.

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

Negative slight acknowledged.

While I have no qualms about White Mage having the ability to club someone to death occasionally, we should not be in this grouping, period. If you feel as if we should, then there needs to be an adjustment made to the job class to compensate. This is where my request for a utility comes into play again.

What I do currently to function in that utility is dedicated skillchain opening. It's a dated function, yes, and other jobs can do it better. But there is really a difference between being able to do so, and choosing to do so. Most players do not. For Red Mage it is the best use of the TP they gain. They can open 3/4 Tier 3 sections before touching a relic/mythic/emperian. Including those weapons into the calculation then can open/close ALL tier 3 combination as well as both Light on Light and Darkness on Darkness.

Considering some of the numbers melee's these days are pushing, these are fairly large spikes in damage (more with classes that get skillchain bonus.) Higher spikes than we can assist with in nukes, factoring in our DoT. Not to mention that if you really want to push for spike damage, we can push our own Burst accuracy bonus.

This tactic works very well in short term fights, especially if you've got TP built up beforehand.

What's missing in this is the utility to justify the TPing itself. As you said, BLU and THF both have niche's that do.

[Swords]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

It is and isn't, something people tend to overlook is RNG's Bounty Shot ability. While it has a one minute timer it does build off a THF's TH effect with a reasonable rate of success (personally 30-40% success rate per try). They have their pros and cons of course, but ideally it would be optimal to have both in those situations. A THF can just go in land the initial TH only going in to proc/WS, while a RNG fires off Bounty Shot every minute building on that from afar while reducing overall TP feed.

[Greatguardian]

I've already gone through the explanation for that in another thread. White Mage is a stronger melee because the Devs, when designing each job, had the foresight not to leave any job defenseless or without basic offensive/defensive options for when they are alone and absolutely need to fight.

Pure-healing and pure-support classes like Bard and White Mage were given melee gear and proficiency because they did not have offensive magic or any other way of defending themselves in a pinch.

As far as max capabilities go? A relic Whm and an Empyrean Rdm are probably not far apart on the melee scale. White Mages who actually melee simply tend to be better geared on average than Red Mages who do so. If as many White Mages wanted to melee as Red Mages, I'm sure their average melee proficiency as a community would plummet.

[Aurara]

Or the thf could do the same thing with SA/TA timers 2x as fast, meaning you can drop the rng.

[Swords]

Yeah.... hence why I said they each had their pros and cons. A THF would still have to get up there in AoE/Conal range even if it was a run in/out situation, and there shouldn't even be an argument about the asinine amount of TP THF's are known to give. A RNG on the other hand can just shoot off their JA from afar without worry about feeding a mob any TP or being hit by any AoE's, the drawback is RNG does not get nearly as much TH as THF does initially so it would be slow to start the group off, hence why I said it would be optimal to have both in those situations.

[Aurara]

THF runs in>TA>runs around>SA>runs out. Very little TP feed there.

[Swords]

And a swing and a miss.

If your not in the fray your not building TH reliably, if your in the fray building TH reliably your feeding it assloads of TP, which is the whole point of my statement. The TH built off Bounty shot is roughly the same rate of success as a THF full time meleeing on a mob (Both raising TH about the same rate in a span of time). Even if it takes 2-4 Bounty Shots to raise the TH up a level, a THF is not going to have the same percentage of success raising TH outside of luck just going in every half min to SATA.

And like always you overlook the bigger picture, you still have the added benefit of a THF and RNG BOTH building TH on a mob, even if the THF is just running in and out.

[Aurara]

Do you kill slow or something? TH shouldn't get that high unless you A)Kill slow or B)get lucky with procs. I think it is you have has missed the swing!