Job Vision: Watch paint dry

[Karbuncle]

My point is that when on SMN I am that mage that you claim should be handling it. I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints. If I'm on SMN there's at most a WHM in the party so my support helps alot more than you think.

SMN support is only superflous if support is already covered, but the same is true of any support role. I wouldnt put a SMN in a group with a WHM + another support mage as that would be overkill, but SMN contributes just fine if it's SMN + WHM or RDM or SCH as the support in a party.

And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

[Razushu]

And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

If a SMN is there as a DD, chances are very good the mob is for whatever reason not the kind a mage should be meleeing on. SMN has more to offer as support than haste. I wouldn't say you'd be better off, on weaker mobs close to even. TP feed being kept down is always a good idea, unless its a trash/exp mob. Just because because an NM's TP moves aren't "OMG! we're all dead! Oh the humanity!" doesn't mean that more of them won't be a pain.

Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

I've said that lots already, I melee on EP/trash mobs all the time, it has niche uses.

In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

Mostly because on anything tough mage melee would not be worth the TP it feeds(there was some math in one of the threads here and it showed an empy SMN did about a 1/4* the damage of an empy WAR). A TP move doesn't need to debuff to to be a pain, the mere increase in TP moves could turn a cake walk into a chore, even if it's only putting a larger drain on the healer to keep the tank healthy.

TBH the question I keep asking the more I think about it is, if this was a single player game where you built and controlled a party of 6, how many of us would go out of their way to take a backline character scrape together what meager frontline friendly gear it had available and insist on playing it as a melee?

*This was not counting avatar damage, before Dallas rides in on his trusty big wheel to save the day for melee mages everywhere. Avatar Damage is not part of the mage melee debate as it's there backline or frontline and its main DMG is TP less.

Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, any job can be geared for melee and in Abyssea what the hell go nuts. On anything meaner than trash mobs the slightly extra melee damage is kind of a push when weighed against stuff like the age old TP arguement or extra risk to the mage meleeing.

[Karbuncle]

First i was like "SAY WAAAT" Then i was all "aight"

Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

[Razushu]

Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus

What can I say I like to wander.

[Karbuncle]

We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus

What can I say I like to wander.

I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

[Razushu]

I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

Ah well that's ok, sorry for making you thread hop.

I think we're fairly close to agreed as it is, or I hope so.