Dragoon Manifesto thoughts

[Karbuncle]

Yah, I know my discussion was off topic and i apologize.

Knowing it was off topic is why i Spoilered it, hoping it wouldn't take the original topic too far off course, By making it to where people wouldn't have to read it if they chose not too... If i could have PM'd him i would have.

I Even labeled it so people knew it was off-OP topic.

I was simply responding to a post made in my direction. In an attempt to be courteous and knowing my discussion was off topic, i Spoilered it to keep it from blowing up too big, and to allow the readers of the DRG thread to not be forced to read it.

You can continue your DRG related discussion any time you wish. I do not (and did not) intend to take the discussion any further.

[Leonlionheart]

Should THF be a great DD?
You need to ask yourself what it should be better than while still being able to give the ABSOLUTE best trait in the game. TH.

Better than PUP? Well yeah, if the PUP is using WHM frame.
Better than COR? Yeah, COR has great party utility.
Better than DNC? It should be. DNC can do so much in both solo and party settings.
Better than NIN? I don't know. NIN has less evasion than THF, and it's the premier evasion tank.
Better than RNG? Well RNG is kind of a Dedicated DD, isn't it? It gets TH now but its much less potent than THF TH.
More damage than DRK? No. THF should never do more damage than DRK. All DRK is is DD, it contributes nothing else to the party except for stuns.

You want to be doing more damage than dedicated DDs, while still maintaining incredibly high evasion(easily the highest), while still having some remnants of enmity control, while still having TH.

Though I agree; the THF update is awful, but THF is already an incredibly useful job. Everyone needs it just for TH, and would invite it even if it did absolutely nothing else but sit there and increase the drop rates of items.

[Karbuncle]

I appologize to the DRG community again.

You want to be doing more damage than dedicated DDs

No we don't, None of us want to perform at the same level as a MNK, WAR, SAM, or DRG, At all. We never asked that. We want to be doing slightly more damage than "Shit tier".

Outside Abyssea half the jobs you named Wreck THF up and down the street blindfolded in terms of damage. COR being the exception, maybe PUP. RNG is an amazing DD, moreso in Voidwatch where you rarely get to Melee anything higher than T2. NIN is better than THF in the DD department as well thanks to much higher overall DPS attributed to Dual Wield V.

If we're going the "Vision" route, the master of "puppetmaster" Was never intended to be a DD, they had a C combat skill rating and no Melee gear (They were on all mage shit), they expected PUP to be SMN2.0 working off their Subjob and having pets fight. This vision changed to make PUP a better DD because it was laughed at becuase of this.

So is THF. the only reason THF isn't condemned to Lolpup territory is TH.

I just don't think TH is an excuse to keep the job mediocre in every other field. Thats not a good reason at all. Otherwise You'll have LS THF Mules running around again. Back at 75 most good LS's had 1 Token THF and/or LS mule who sat around in Thief's Knife and Assassin Armlets who hit the mob, and Afk'd. by 99 This will happen again except with new boots if we keep going the direction we are.

Its not asking for much, Only a small boost, something meaningful to our combat.

[Leonlionheart]

I appologize to the DRG community again.

No we don't, None of us want to perform at the same level as a MNK, WAR, SAM, or DRG, At all. We never asked that. We want to be doing slightly more damage than "Shit tier".

Outside Abyssea half the jobs you named Wreck THF up and down the street blindfolded in terms of damage. COR being the exception, maybe PUP. RNG is an amazing DD, moreso in Voidwatch where you rarely get to Melee anything higher than T2. NIN is better than THF in the DD department as well thanks to much higher overall DPS attributed to Dual Wield V.

If we're going the "Vision" route, the master of "puppetmaster" Was never intended to be a DD, they had a C combat skill rating and no Melee gear (They were on all mage shit), they expected PUP to be SMN2.0 working off their Subjob and having pets fight. This vision changed to make PUP a better DD because it was laughed at becuase of this.

So is THF. the only reason THF isn't condemned to Lolpup territory is TH.

I just don't think TH is an excuse to keep the job mediocre in every other field. Thats not a good reason at all. Otherwise You'll have LS THF Mules running around again. Back at 75 most good LS's had 1 Token THF and/or LS mule who sat around in Thief's Knife and Assassin Armlets who hit the mob, and Afk'd. by 99 This will happen again except with new boots if we keep going the direction we are.

Its not asking for much, Only a small boost, something meaningful to our combat.

I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

[Karbuncle]

I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

I think a good Start would be to help us in the Critical hit department again. A job Trait that Increases our Critical hit rate woudln't hurt. should start low level and build up. Like for instance

Critical Rate Bonus-
THF 15/30/45/60/75/90
Lv1. 5%
Lv2. 7%
Lv3. 9%
Lv4. 11%
Lv5. 13%
Lv.6 15%

Daggers biggest bonus in damage will come from Critical hits. having our Crit rate higher than other jobs wouldn't obsolete jobs like the ones you listed, But boost our Damage enough it would be rather decent. It wouldn't be Abyssea level either.

And most jobs are better than SAM and DRK in abyssea :\, even PUP. Those jobs were just boned because of Razed Ruins. They're still good jobs, just Abyssea hurt them a lot.

I'm worried more for outside content. I feel our power is fine in abyssea, its what comes after I'm afraid We'll fall down on

[noodles355]

Inside Abyssea, any job with a critical hit WS is strong. That's not a comment on Thief as when those WSs most used (outside of empyrean) were introduced, there probably weren't any plans for abyssea.

If you want a good direction for Thief that isn't pure DD, then take a look at some of the great steal ideas that SE has decided to completely ignore in favour of just upping the success rate.
Upping the success rate on steal is like polishing a turd. It may be shiney, but it's still a turd. The whole steal system needs a re-work, and there are really good suggestions about what should be done.

Currently, the only good steal ability is Aura Steal, and it has a 5 minute timer and is cockblocked if the mob holds something. Apart from a certain Qiqirin in Salvage, and Brigandish Blade, there's really nothing worth stealing. Despoil is just steal but inflicts a random debuff. Useless on NMs as they don't carry stuff. Useless in general because you can't plan around it to make it useful.

Ideas have been thrown out like:
Make Aura Steal own ability, lower recast, merit catagory just increase success rate (dispel only @ 0/5, +X% absorb rate per merit).
Make Steal steal tempory items. The quality varying with the mob.
There's really fantastic despoil suggestions, like making them work like stratagems or quick draw and be a catagory with different debuffs you can despoil, and most importantly making it have nothing to do with the item stolen.

Things like this, and suddenly you get Thf from tagging the mob and AFKing, to being able to contribute more stuff outside of direct damage as well.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm surprised it doesn't already have that JT lol

off topic too long,

DRG is cool

[Karbuncle]

Lets go here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ob-adjustments.

[noodles355]

Let's go there to look, but come back to discuss. At least in this forum there's a tiny chance someone from SE may reply.

It's obvious the SE reps read a lot of the topics, through the nature of some of their replies, and through the fact that some are moderated and moved. Yet they won't even bother to reply to any single thief topic about the issues that are raised time and time again.

[Karbuncle]

I just don't want to continue here because it will likely be moderated for off topic discussion, no matter what we say :\

I'd like to think they have a reason that they never post in Job Forums. I assume they don't respond because they don't have the answers. I can't blame them. I know they read and send it off we cant be mad at them for anything :X

Plus when they do respond they still get hate-responses sometimes. Its a thankless job sometimes, They're only human, Shit If i was them I'd probably stop responding to so many threads if no one ever appreciated the work i did -.-