ATTN: Community Reps/Dev Team: PUPs of Vanadiel DEMAND a response on Automaton A.I.!

[TimeMage]

I could say my PUP does nowhere the damage of my WAR... And I would be totally wrong. Hit for hit, WS for WS, the WAR wins, clearly. But damn it, we have our automatons! When Sancho is churning 2k+ Armor Piercers around, skillchaining with my 2k+ Stringing Pummels and weakening the mob defenses in the process (as well as adding its own constant damage during the TP phase), I know i'm a damn good DD as PUP.

Seriha is right. Increasing too much the pet's power would cause imbalances. However, I don't think we're near that point, at all. Our pets, right now, as DDs makes us competitive with the best, as soloers makes us survivors with fear of strong AoEs and status effects (the latter should not be an issue, but... You know, stupid AI), and as nukers, our pets can dish out great hateless nukes at the price of slow nukes.

We're fine, and not overpowered. But there's some VERY glaring issues, listed in Psion's first post, that should be addressed.

[Mercilessturtle]

Oh look, it is the "please keep pup terrible" squad. No, pup is not a good DD. No, automatons do not contribute significant damage. I understand you have absolutely no concept of what kind of damage a good DD does, and have no concept of parsing instead of going "I saw one decent WS once so it must be awesome". But try doing something other than soloing and parse it, and get a glimpse of reality.

Pup is miles behind war, drg, nin, and mnk, and of course also way behind drk and sam outside of abyssea where those jobs aren't getting screwed by their lack of crit WS. And yes, that is including automaton damage. There is no magical "being good at pup" skill that negates the fundamental game mechanics. Pup has high delay, low damage, slow tp gain, awful DD gear, and no DD abilities natively. This is supposed to be made up for by having an automaton. Automatons barely contribute more offense than a drg's wyvern, and are way less useful defensively.

[Seha]

Automatons barely contribute more offense than a drg's wyvern, and are way less useful defensively.

K. I confirm my previous statement.

[Cymmina]

K. I confirm my previous statement.

You honestly believe Soulsoother is better than a Defensive Wyvern? It's the pet that doesn't try to status removal you *instead* of curing you and can be done as frequently as the DRG can cast, instead of on a 20s timer (depending on active maneuvers). Also, it can status removal every time you perform a WS. There's also the emergency Restoring Breath JA on a 1 minute timer, that can be used regardless of which type of Wyvern you have out and the HP levels of your party.

Sharpshot and Valoredge being worse damage than an Offensive Wyvern may be an exaggeration, but not by much. Wyvern can get Haste, Marches, and other assorted buffs via Empathy (depending on merits), and Empathy doubles as a "steal all your Wyvern's TP and heal it up" JA. Plus, it gets food bonuses from Lancer's Plackart +1/2!

[Camate]

Please understand that we are not ignoring you, gallivanting off in some other thread. We make sure that most if not all of your feedback is passed on to the appropriate person and if it is not something that we can answer directly, we wait until we receive the proper information so that we can comment.

With that said, making attacks on me or any of the community reps, or even the entire team as a whole will not aid your cause nor will it speed up the rate in which we receive answers that we can provide to you.

As to the topic at hand, it has been reported and we do not yet have a comment that we can make.

[Seriha]

Please understand that we are not ignoring you, gallivanting off in some other thread. We make sure that most if not all of your feedback is passed on to the appropriate person and if it is not something that we can answer directly, we wait until we receive the proper information so that we can comment.

With that said, making attacks on me or any of the community reps, or even the entire team as a whole will not aid your cause nor will it speed up the rate in which we receive answers that we can provide to you.

As to the topic at hand, it has been reported and we do not yet have a comment that we can make.

Speaking as one of those crazy RDM melee advocates, it's not hard finding frustration when we can't even quite settle on what we want, have people storming in calling us retards (Perhaps in far more words), and still feel a bit lost on SE's direction despite years and years of fishing for some kind of acknowledgement. As is, even in those moments of lapsed judgment, I don't think any one of us sane folks hold you guys directly responsible for all the preceding has come to inspire over the years. If anything, we're grateful things have evolved beyond blind POL mails, unanswered other-forum feedback, the odd question at a Community Event or Japanese magazine article, eventually to Twitter, and now here. In acting for the betterment of the game, and at times, no doubt "enduring" us, we thank you.

That said, and with other jobs having Manifesto threads here while RDMs have perhaps refrained, all I can humbly request is some prodding on the job's melee future. Is the intent to leave things as is and full-on embrace the vision mentioned in the manifesto, or might there have been an oversight in conveying the message, as some of us feel that enhancing our party members and enfeebling monsters is not something that can be completely separated from swinging a sword if such mechanics were worthwhile and encouraged by dev attention and future growth.

[Airget]

Speaking as one of those crazy RDM melee advocates, it's not hard finding frustration when we can't even quite settle on what we want, have people storming in calling us retards (Perhaps in far more words), and still feel a bit lost on SE's direction despite years and years of fishing for some kind of acknowledgement. As is, even in those moments of lapsed judgment, I don't think any one of us sane folks hold you guys directly responsible for all the preceding has come to inspire over the years. If anything, we're grateful things have evolved beyond blind POL mails, unanswered other-forum feedback, the odd question at a Community Event or Japanese magazine article, eventually to Twitter, and now here. In acting for the betterment of the game, and at times, no doubt "enduring" us, we thank you.

That said, and with other jobs having Manifesto threads here while RDMs have perhaps refrained, all I can humbly request is some prodding on the job's melee future. Is the intent to leave things as is and full-on embrace the vision mentioned in the manifesto, or might there have been an oversight in conveying the message, as some of us feel that enhancing our party members and enfeebling monsters is not something that can be completely separated from swinging a sword if such mechanics were worthwhile and encouraged by dev attention and future growth.

In terms of melee RDM, they have worked in some things to allow for melee potential, but you can't just add more and more melee ability without taking balance into account. Enspell tier 2, Composure, and buffs they already have hand make them pretty useful to melee and even take hits.

If you look at the Manifesto as a whole you would see that they are trying to create the defined S rank role for each job. If you take a look at one ability, granted it's timer might be high but the "quick cast" JA they have in mind which they have noted works for jutsu/brd/spells could assist with the RDM/NIN setup of keeping shadows up. Also a quick stoneskin recast, or maybe a quick bind/gravity.

I think RDM's need to realize they are a strong job and they already have the capability to melee, but they shoudln't expect to have the same melee potency as a DD it would just be imbalanced. Unless you don't mind a JA that suppresses all of your enfeebling spells like gravity/para in order to improve your melee capabilities. You just have to consider that melee potential will be give and take. I don't understand why it seems like RDM want to turn into melee when they have a wide range of enfeebles and spells that allow them to solo pretty well. I just hope that the melee RDM suggestions on this forum push SE to change their concept of RDM when it's define trait is it's enfeebling power. To change a job's definition because people want it to melee better just makes no sense when you already have a wide range of melee jobs, if you really want to melee more just pick a DD job since it's the same thing.
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As for the automaton list, thanks for translating it for us I know my friends will make use of it and be grateful to have a clear idea of the exact boost with each one. I"m also certain they would be happy if the Dev teams actually responds in a positive way about changing the logic of the automaton AI. Perhaps as a suggestion you could add some things to the attachments they already have. Such as let's say the Dispel attachment which was a RDM unique spell til SCH was introduced could add a "Magic logic increase", where basically the Dispel attachment makes the magic automaton react more logically with enfeebles and checks for MP and ability to cast spells on the mobs in question.

But ya I"m certain the team is trying to work things out you juts gotta give them time when there are 20 jobs in the game, attempting to balance and make each one unique is quite a tough feat. But if we just wait a week or two we'll hopefully see even more news about the vision of each job and abilities we can look forward to.

[Supersun]

I don't understand why it seems like RDM want to turn into melee when they have a wide range of enfeebles and spells that allow them to solo pretty well.

Hmm, now what's wrong with this statement.

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And you misunderstand the melee Rdm argument. Rdms aren't asking to DD like a DD. We are just asking to at least DD better then a White Mage and a Bard.

With maybe an added bonus of some workable utility on our melee.
(Also, Enspell IIs are crap until they actually fix the accuracy on them and possibly get rid of the stupid damage scaling thingie).

[Duelle]

In terms of melee RDM, they have worked in some things to allow for melee potential, but you can't just add more and more melee ability without taking balance into account. Enspell tier 2, Composure, and buffs they already have hand make them pretty useful to melee and even take hits.

Enspell 2's are of questionable design. Composure is nice but not enough to say "this Red Mage in melee gear, with a melee sub and using Composure belongs in the front lines". As far as buffs...what buffs? Refresh (can be spammed from the back and basically needs to be cycled)? Haste (same deal as Refresh)? Gain spells are self-only (thank God), and we're still short Gain DEX and Gain STR. And please refrain from bringing up utility, because utility never justifies lacking damage and/or performance in the front lines.

I think RDM's need to realize they are a strong job and they already have the capability to melee, but they shoudln't expect to have the same melee potency as a DD it would just be imbalanced.

Not without the proper balancing mechanics in place. If you don't perform up to par, you don't get invited for that role and are never in consideration for that role. That's the start and the end of it.

Unless you don't mind a JA that suppresses all of your enfeebling spells like gravity/para in order to improve your melee capabilities.

I'd be fine with that, provided you have melee-exclusive enfeebles that are relevant to front liners (not just those of us who would be melee'ing on RDM, but also the WARs, SAMs, DRGs, DRKs and so on who are also in the front lines), with a buff to personal damage so that damage from another "real" DD doesn't easily outweigh your offered utility when front-lining. I'd also make healing outside of procs or other in-melee gimmicks very inconvenient to help solidify the front-line presence.

To change a job's definition because people want it to melee better just makes no sense when you already have a wide range of melee jobs, if you really want to melee more just pick a DD job since it's the same thing.

Less about changing a job's definition and more about correcting something that should have never happened to Red Mage in the first place. Also, tell that to all the DRKs. I already answered in the DRK manifesto thread why some of us are so bent on seeing our classes fixed rather than just throw in the towel and play something else.

If Camate is reading this, I also second Seriha's request to have more than just PUP and DRK get some sort of reaction or response. The RDM forums have been having melee discussions since the forums opened and the manifesto the developers released was far off the mark given all the discussions. At one point I even suspected we were a faction exclusive to the NA region, only to discover the JP players also have a RDM melee camp (or as they call it, naguri aka madoushi). We were conveniently ignored before the forums opened, none of the web pages or sites mentions us during interviews. It's easy to feel ignored under those conditions.

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Personally, puppet AI doesn't look like it would be easy to fix. I personally feel the healer automaton should just be more open to direct orders from the PUP. You can get away with the recasts and so on while nuking and just AI while having it hit things or use ranged attacks, but healing unfortunately requires being a little more direct. It's more the spell list than anything else, otherwise it would probably play similar to a healer wyvern.