[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] NIN

[FrankReynolds]

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

That was sarcasm. People aren't going to start bringing ninjas to everything just because they got a few more hit points.

MNK never really did the most damage (Except for the first few weeks of delve, where oats were easy to get, but no one had any other 119 weapons because they came from harder bosses.) they just didn't die nearly so easily. Every fight was "Keep mantra up full time so nothing kills you" or bust.

And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.

I'll believe it when I start seeing shouts for ninjas in PUG. Until then, the extra HP is pretty much useless.

[Damane]

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

that depends on the pld, i have seen plds do respectable dmg while main tanking. it all depends if they get the same proper support like any DD would get. obviously a pld with only shit buffs like ballad isnt gonna pull his weigh, but an ochain pld that doesnt have to worry about getting 1 shot due to ochain and/or sherzo can pump out respectable dmg if buffed like a melee. PLD is also one of the jobs to reach some of the highest accuracy numbers by itself by gear/selfbuffs without outside buffs.

[Grekumah]

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

[Zerowin]

So does that mean we can look forward to seeing Ni version's or even San in the future?

[WoW]

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

I agree with this.

Also; nin are very good dd, but if you are comparing them to a sam; yea......sams are just plain broken atm (or rngs whom have the comfort of safety and great damage).

If shurikens and Ninjutsu are brought back, nin will be insane. I miss the utility at lower lvls; thrashing colibri outside of Whitegate with manji and the elemental wheel in the 40s. Good times.

[Selindrile]

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

[WoW]

I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now . An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice . Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).

[dasva]

Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now . An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice . Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).

Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

[Kari]

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

Please think of Dancer and any other job that loses a ton of damage from JA delay.

[WoW]

Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

Instant/damaging was mentioned in my first post.

I also bolded was. Obviously, i do not use shurikens on my lvl99 nin lol^^ Usually, when I back shurikens, ppl throw the game mechanics and whatnot at me lol^^ i understand where you are coming from Dasva, as a 99 nin, I took all of this into consideration; delay (Throwing and melee). Even with 300dmg shurikens, sange must deal weaponskill -esque damage to compete. i used sange pre-ilvl, but only in abyssea (on birds), were it would crit often on distant mobs (And only on pulls). 2.5-9k on a distance mob is not too shabby. I made my own fumas and money is not really an issue now and days (Salvage,dyna farming, etc). Sange was useless outside, because it would not crit as often. In abyssea, i had a macro for distance mobs out of range. Ppl would say, "Wtf did you hit that bird with" good times^^

I stand firm, throwing can work; for instance, in an old throwing thread, I mentioned an instant damaging throwing ability, akin to konzen-ittai which chainbounds the mob; which allows the nin to follow up with a weaponskill. i mean, nin has burst and skillchain bonus, not entirely far-fetched. Throwing can be done; it is not impossible. Example scenario, throwing skill > 6k damage > chainbound > Blade:whatever > 7k damage > darkness/light > 7k etc. Not saying they will do that, just something I am throwing out there. Dnc can self chain as-well as sam; they both have bonuses. We have bonuses, but cannot skillchain without the aid of another individual.