[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Supersun]

With the exception of a nuking party when do you need to actually refresh 5-6 people in the actual party? Are you like only using Blus and Drks because most DDs and support jobs don't really need the refresh?

And if you do I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one other person in that party with /Rdm who could split it with you or take the load for himself if would be better for you to Wildfire spam when you aren't rolling.

[Greatguardian]

If we're talking about Refreshing your singular healer, I'm sure that would work out fine. I was simply pointing out the very real shortcomings of expecting Cor/Rdm to be able to Refresh people. They can do it, they just can't Refresh more than 3 at the absolute most.

It's also possible, depending on the exact adjustments to Evoker's Roll, that SMN/COR will be back on top in the group Refresh game. Diabolos's Favor plus subbed Evoker's isn't half bad, considering it rounds up rather than floors for whatever reason (Buff potency = COR level / Buff Receiver level, or 50% for fully leveled SJ rounded up for Evoker's). I'm not sure I'd ever sub COR on Red Mage though, so I'm not sure where the discussion even spawned from. Did they mean RDM + COR > COR/RDM? Two people are always better than one, etc.

[Duelle]

Would I trade Cure V for these enfeebles as a White Mage? No, I wouldn't, because if White Mage didn't have Cure V, there would be very little reason to have one. If either SCH or RDM were to get it, they'd pretty much dominate WHM in most aspects because they have superior MP longevity and they perform other roles like crowd control and buffs better.

Both camps act as if they aren't useful at all without the spell, but they ignore the problem that currently plagues the White Mage class, the prospect that at any moment, the masses will have their way, and White Mage will be useless outside of being needed for certain procs in Abyssea.

The answer there would be to refine RDM's roles, create an alternate spell for healing for RDM and SCH, and give WHM additional and class-inherent (because almost everything that contributes to MP efficacy on WHM comes from gear that enters the game very late in the leveling process) MP efficacy. Seeing that Refresh I and II are the most un-RDM things to ever exist, I wouldn't mind giving those to WHM as well. The only thing you'd be missing is convert, which is fixed at 80 when you sub RDM.

A bit of a metaphor, I'd still invite a Red Mage to a party even if the job couldn't cure at all. I couldn't say the same for White Mage.

Well, both jobs are kind of different. One is a healer, the other is a guy with white magic, black magic, and a sword in hand.

[Ketaru]

The Devs have stated quite clearly that they are looking into improving the group aspect of Red Mage, which consists of its Buffing and Debuffing prowess. That's an incredibly polite way of saying "No". I'm sorry if you just don't see that, or want to look for things that just aren't there. Who knows, you may get lucky.

I don't know what kind of update it is you think I actually want. The only thing I can give you is that I intend to use it, whatever form it may take.

[SpankWustler]

Seeing that Refresh I and II are the most un-RDM things to ever exist

Something that some guy from SE said a couple of weeks ago:

"Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement."

My apologies to you and your Frankenfurter-Flipper's Sharpened Spatula, but the dudes at SE seem to have other ideas and they're the ones who will be fine-tuning SpankWustler.

Not being sarcastic. Well, not with the "Sorry" part, anyway.

I get that you're not happy with not being able to hit things with things while wearing a red thing on your thing, but that's not the direction things are going in this game.

Yeah, the idea of a spellsword or whatnot is a common concept in fantasy works and fantasy RPGs in particular. It's just that a dude in blue pants fills that role in FFXI rather than a dude in red pants, as was the case in some previous Square games.

Sorry you got a raw deal in that Red Mage isn't what you expected, but keep in mind lots of people enjoy SpankWustler as-is and apparently the development team is among those people.

[Greatguardian]

I don't know what kind of update it is you think I actually want. The only thing I can give you is that I intend to use it, whatever form it may take.

I think you're under the impression that it matters to me one way or another what people want.

I addressed one single point, an important one for sure, but that point and that alone. I could care less what sort of update you want for Red Mage, or what other people want for it. You, and quite frankly some others as well, have simply asked that SE make a statement one way or another on what they want for Red Mage; Be it a pure Mage, or a Hybrid when they already have.

They have, straight up, said that Red Mage is a Mage class with specializations in Enhancing and Enfeebling. They have, straight up, said that they are not looking to improve Red Mage's swordplay, but those who are really into that sort of thing will probably benefit from the game-wide rework of pre-75 WS anyways.

I don't particularly care if you like it or not. But asking SE to put their foot down is ridiculous when they've made it abundantly clear that they absolutely do not want to make any sort of drastic adjustment to Red Mage's melee proficiency, and feel that they contribute much more to a group as a pure Caster.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In other news, I'd choke a kitten to cast Dia III. While it's only a 5% increase over Dia II, it's a 15% increase over some butt-brained Black Mage's Bio II. I know that's not a good reason, but overwriting that dreadful spell would feel so good.

Not that Spankwustler's merits, Category I and II, aren't a little lackluster otherwise. That's the case with a lot of jobs. Fortunately, that sounds like something the current development team really wants to work on.

I never get tired of overwriting Bio 2 - and then rage as another Rdm casts Bio 3 over me.


As for the Cor argument - I have no problem with Cor being considered more viable (because Cor really needs the buffs) as long as SE delivers. Come on SE, deliver.

[Economizer]

The answer there would be to refine RDM's roles, create an alternate spell for healing for RDM and SCH, and give WHM additional and class-inherent (because almost everything that contributes to MP efficacy on WHM comes from gear that enters the game very late in the leveling process) MP efficacy. Seeing that Refresh I and II are the most un-RDM things to ever exist, I wouldn't mind giving those to WHM as well. The only thing you'd be missing is convert, which is fixed at 80 when you sub RDM.

As much as White Mage would love Refresh II, it isn't the way the game is or should be. It has and always will be Red Mage's thing. I'll use some colorful language to illustrate. Red Mage wears a red hat with a feather in it that is very iconic of what its job is. Red Mage is the pimp of magic. If you want to be pimped up, you should have a Red Mage in your party too.

That said, I can understand where the feeling about Red Mage being a poor enhancer may be coming from. Red Mage can't exactly cast its most powerful buffs on allies. Two-three buffs does not a buffer make.

On more efficient cures, perhaps a spell that targets monsters and allies. On foes, it would be enfeebling magic, and set a debuff. When that foe attacks your ally, you then cast the spell on your friend, which in turn, cures them for a portion of the attack.

This might not be workable or balanced, but the example fits Red Mage in my opinion, because the concept of "Red Magic" in this game was that Red Mage, by knowing both White and Black magics, could combine the two, most notably into enspells. Because Red Mage knows both equally well, they understand how to fuse the two in harmony. This is the romance of a Red Mage, something bookish fools like Scholars could never understand, despite their bookish knowledge of bigger elemental damage spells, or debuff removal.

[SpankWustler]

I never get tired of overwriting Bio 2 - and then rage as another Rdm casts Bio 3 over me.


As for the Cor argument - I have no problem with Cor being considered more viable (because Cor really needs the buffs) as long as SE delivers. Come on SE, deliver.

Bio III - Strong enough to use while spending 2 hours soloing an NM because you have no idea how to cast Elemental Magic, but subtle enough to enrage countless melee and one other caster in just 1.5 seconds. The perfect spell.

Corsair definitely could use...something. Most of it's unique buffs from rolls (which never held a candle to a decent March for a competent melee) are all over equipment now, and the relatively new "Haste" roll is too weird to be universally useful. Between that and stacks of Oberon's Bullets existing only in the hearts and minds of dreaming children, I'm barely on the job at all.

It seems like the last job anyone should worry about taking their favorite job's role, as things stand.

[Rayik]

I looked through this entire thread and not a single person corrected this. Red Mage not only has a magic elemental WS, they have access to the best magic elemental WS, and on top of that, they (ignoring sub) arguably have the best stats for this WS.

Aeolian Edge is incredibly powerful, and hardly affected by damage rating of your dagger if at all. That said, Red Mage gets access to the best daggers available, although you may have to stick to a Blau for a while until you can acquire one of the slightly harder to get ones.

You're joking, right? Ok, let's recap. RDM's advertised "signature weapon" is a sword; evidenced by not only previous games, but many references in FFXI itself, not the least including our Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean/Magian Trial weapons are SWORDS. So yeah, it should make perfect sense our best Weapon Skills are on DAGGER.

And access to the best "daggers available?" Magian trials say hi. Twilight is a tough dagger, but you can't proc the added effects with any enspell active. Blau Dolch was awesome at 75. The only real alternative is the highest level one on the AH(I can never remember it's name, Ughdott or something). Seriously, we had to resort to using daggers, for most of us it wasn't a favorable choice. Sure, they swing faster, but my Magian swords do a lot more damage per swing than my Blau, but without a favorable sword ws, that extra damage doesn't matter as much.

In addition, you can solo farm in Abyssea like no other job can, since you can Phalanx yourself, cure yourself, and even get a combination of Azure and Amber lights. How's that for melee? Maybe you won't be able to solo the NMs, but taking on thirty easy prey mobs at once seems pretty bad ass to me.

BLU gets CW, and Vorpal Blade, in addition to a number of Curing, Damage reducing, etc spells. If RDM can solo in Aby "like no other job can" then by all means, enlighten me.

Perhaps this isn't what people mean by melee (is a non-empyrean sword really necessary to qualify as RDM melee?) but it is very powerful. Red Mage always has and always will have some sharp tricks up its sleeve, and a feather in its hat, for those who can earn it. The lack of a correction on this matter over ten pages of text makes me wonder though... for a traditionally backline job to melee, you have to want it, and not knowing your abilities shows a distinct lack of care.

Not knowing my abilities? This coming from the guy that thinks RDM's get the best daggers? THF and DNC would like a word with you about that. Hell, RDM can't even use a Yahtagan.

I'm working on getting an Almace. I've made a "checklist" of gear I need to make RDM melee viable for my personal play style. I only use a dagger currently because I don't have an Almace. I prefer swords, and if RDM had a ws that was half as decent as Evisceration, I'd drop my daggers in a heartbeat.

EDIT: I haven't been on these boards in about a week or so, so sorry for necro'ing this old post.