[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Seriha]

AE loses a lot of steam if you're not fighting 2+ mobs, either. Seeing how with the proper atmas I can crank Sanguine Blade up to 3k+ on mobs that won't resist, I'd rather be using that for one-on-one fights. Would just be nice if we didn't have to have a specific sub for it.

[Economizer]

I certainly think that Red Mage should have the ToM Daggers, even if they are excluded from the Empyrean Dagger for whatever odd balance reason. That said, I've seen a Paladin pull 1200+ damage Aeolian Edges using Ultimate/Beyond/Gales and a level 12 knife (he also capped shield doing this). Red Mage doesn't even have to sub a job for access to the weapon skill so the choices are open (although main handing a Twilight Knife and off-handing a Joyeuse or a magian multihitter sword certainly sounds like a solid alternative to a Martial Knife).

Assuming SE gives RDM Staff skill, subbing WHM for Cataclysm may be viable too (ever think you'd see the day where you'd sub WHM for more DD power?). That said, I'm envious of Red Mage, as they can do a powerful AOE WS while offhanding a trial weapon when they work on their multihitters, working on a multihitter as a White Mage takes a lot more relying on others or a lot more time whacking things.

[Seriha]

Heh, at least WHM/NIN can main-hand a damaging weapon. Working on my 2-4x scythe was utter hell on DRK since not far into it its delegated to a D40ish weapon that off the bat tends to put you against mobs level 65+ outside of Abyssea. Got more tolerable once it could actually mult-hit, but before then... ugh.

[Economizer]

Why Scythe? Most Dark Knights I've seen go for the Great Sword (Which shares a surprising amount of trials with the multihitter Club) for whatever reason, I figure its so they can also use the weapon on Paladin.

[Seriha]

I had a few reasons. Skill up weapon for later dates, possible SEBW zerging, and as the main weapon for a good atma/gear build for Infernal Scythe, Endark is also boosted to 70+ a whack, too. WSing and having enough TP to WS again after 1 round isn't impossible, either. Sure, a near-guaranteed 2k+ WS might not be the epeen of other crit-fueled ventures, but the speed you can crank them out counts. Herc Slash is the better WS, sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if those people also had PLD on the side, but I haven't jumped toward that trial if only because I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs. Someday. Maybe. x.x

[Economizer]

I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs.

I don't know what the NM stage for that weapon is like, but killing Stray Mary x3 was harder then fighting the gnats and ladybugs. If you can get a friend to help, you can do them in Abyssea, but I did both outside. On Ladybugs, I teamed up with a Dark Knight with the Great Sword for much of it, and on Gnats, I worked with some LS members doing random vermin trials or just plain helping. The Gnats were worse, but not too bad. I'm currently working on Qiqirn, which I currently deem worse then Gnats. Because Gnats just try to kill you. Qiqirn run.

[Seriha]

Heh, true enough. My luck with chancing upon random people working on the same trials was never that great, though.

[noodles355]

Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

Because my party will have a whm do the main curing duty, and I'm there as a support. So I would rather be /blm for Stun and Elemental Seal.

Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted

Actually Seriha, I leveled Rdm as a mage job, and I enjoy playing Rdm as a mage job. As mentioned above, you seem to ignore that some people actually enjoy the mage side more and would be happy being a pure mage.

[Hyrist]

Actually Seriha, I leveled Rdm as a mage job, and I enjoy playing Rdm as a mage job. As mentioned above, you seem to ignore that some people actually enjoy the mage side more and would be happy being a pure mage.

Yet, on the same notion, the job's archtype has it functioning as both, and yet you choose to ignore that concept when you approach the job as a 'pure mage'.

I mean, fine, Red Mages in their previous iterations could equip staves/wands and other mage types if that's the way you wanted to play it.

But back in those days Red Mage was out-shined by other more dedicated casters, even Scholar, who worked in different schools of magic just like Red Mage did. The melee aspect was what kept it unique in this case (though the double-cast concept also assisted this when it was added on later.)

There's no reason why either of these aspects should be neglected. Though, honestly, the steriotypes go into both directions.

I've no problem with a SUPPORT caster Red Mage. I've a problem with the job getting pigeon holed into a psudo WHM role. That's not what it's there for, sorry. If you want to give it some healing capacity so it can split the healing duties with some other job that's present and go sans WHM, that's fine, but to try to make it a solo healer, I've got a problem with that.

What Seriha puts to light is the fact that many Red Mages who did like the Mage aspects of the job leveling up, did not do so with a unique concept of the job in mind. Rather, they preformed very much like White Mages with a superior MP endurance and Refresh.

This brings the same two questions to the Mage Side of Red Mage, as is presented to the Melee Side.

Why do you play Red Mage as a backline caster?
Would those reasons not be better suited by another job.

In the case of those who chose RDM as a support caster, right now, Scholar fills that role better. Granted, scholar can be a specialist if it chooses to be, but that only influences the fact that it would be more desirable all around. Where as Red Mage really... has Refresh II, and Chainspell to its credit. The rest are just out-shined or, in a sorry state of affairs, like our enfeebles. Not enough of it melds into a solid role anymore and Red Mages are simply accepted because they are more available.

But the point of them being populated this much, was really contributed to Refresh whoring in the early days, and the psudo-WHM with the super MP pool in the ToAU era.

Back Line Red Mages have no set 'role' so much as they have two single target buffs to cycle, and then make like they're not actually useless and toss a cure in case the WHM is sleeping on the job or overtaxed. Sure, you can 'find things to do' to help contribute to the party more in that timeframe, but as the levels rise, the key reasons you're invited for, refresh and haste, become less important for you specifically to do, as Refresh I is already accessible Subjob wise, not to mention the massive amounts of MP restoration in the game now, and Haste is accessible /whm now, and will be /rdm at 99 cap.


So both of these aspects, Mage and Melee, need to be looked at and updated. And while there is a community that enjoys being back line on Red Mage, they may have to deal with the idea that the job as it may become in the future, won't necessarily be what they want it to be (For example, a capable solo healer.) In the same vein front line Red Mages have to coke down that they might not get as far or the specific role they want for their melee duties (I.E. Tanking.)

So all Red Mages, regardless of the camp they are on, are really going to have to re-evaluate what their image for the job is, and, instead of arguing at each other to say why their particular vision is wrong, instead try to focus on what feedback they should give to SE as to what updates they would want to see, to assist their particular vision for Red Mage, within SE's manifesto.

[cidbahamut]

I know I've made a post about this in the past and that was only scratching the surface of possibilities

Ah, so you were talking about the theoretical rather than what's actually on the table now. I notice about half of your solutions are just Regen under different names, and the other half appear to be things that White Mages already do.

Though this may be a slight assumption, but if you are saying that a Rdm with Light Arts and Add White should heal better then a Sch then are you saying the reverse is true as well?

A Rdm can't nuke as well as a Sch using Dark Arts and Add Black. It'd be weird if they couldn't considering that they aren't able to be as flexible when switching between light and dark.

What makes healing the exception on Rdm? Why should a job that has to limit his spell selection to cure, not be as efficient as the job that has everything at the same time?

Certainly the aesthetic that Red Mage gets cures a few levels earlier then Sch shouldn't be the entire basis of your argument.

Who said anything about healing better than Scholar? Not me. To clarify, I am of the opinion that Scholar and Red Mage should be approximately even when it comes to filling the role of Healer when there is no White Mage available. We can bicker about the specifics of how that is accomplished, but they should both be acceptable alternatives, unlike now where they aren't even alternatives because there is only one acceptable healer for the curent metagame.