[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Ketaru]

If things had gone in a different direction long ago and crippling the monster was as beneficial as enhancing other players, I think pet jobs would be in a much better place right now.

Things are what things are, though, and I can't imagine that even happening for anybody to react to it.

"Things are what things are, though" is pretty recurring theme of this thread, and while it is arguably appropriate to use here for RDM, it is that kind of mindset that I think got my other job into such a mess in the first place.

For years and years, BSTs told themselves that the job is fine so long as it can solo things. And looking at some of the comments over on that forum:

If you are adding onto what a bst can bring to a party then this is fine with me.
BUT if you are considering taking away a bst's ability to solo, I am against this new direction. And the majority of the bst community will be as well.

It looks like some of them are still perfectly happy with being the job that mindlessly throws NPCs at mobs, even as the rest of the playerbase can see the gaping holes and shortcomings of it. It got a pretty big boost with the introduction of Abyssea, but in the end, the boost only makes it so even the most undergeared player can do modest damage.

Our pets don't receive buffs from other players aside from COR (which has all kinds of limitations on its own that spellcasters don't have). And we have a lot of potential flexibility that goes wasted by an ability system that takes all the worst points of PUP and SMN with none of the advantages. It has no interactivity with other jobs aside from being a low maintenance damage dealer. But at least we can solo Cerberus in exchange for a Fort Knox worth of fodder and food. And that's all that matters, right?!

Everything some of you have said about how the spells I would like need to be casted on the master itself and it'll work on the pet through that. But unfortunately, as you said, it's unlikely we'll ever see such an update. And the latest Dev Q & A in that forum just makes me all the more disappointed by how mum they stay on the subject of just how they want to actually want to integrate the job into the group setting.

All well, at least my idea for new RDM spells has been put out there. I really think that, coupled with competent updates to the target jobs themselves, they could be potential game changers as well as add a type of support to the game that is under-served and unexplored.

[Duelle]

Doesn't it make sense that we rally for some form of a melee buff to enhance our weakness to amplify our greatest strength of being a generalist?

Except we go back to the point where generalist design doesn't work in MMORPGs. Multi-classing (AKA the subjob system) and gear were supposed to help alleviate that, but it's not been enough due to many reasons already covered.

It looks like some of them are still perfectly happy with being the job that mindlessly throws NPCs at mobs, even as the rest of the playerbase can see the gaping holes and shortcomings of it. It got a pretty big boost with the introduction of Abyssea, but in the end, the boost only makes it so even the most undergeared player can do modest damage.

Our pets don't receive buffs from other players aside from COR (which has all kinds of limitations on its own that spellcasters don't have). And we have a lot of potential flexibility that goes wasted by an ability system that takes all the worst points of PUP and SMN with none of the advantages. It has no interactivity with other jobs aside from being a low maintenance damage dealer. But at least we can solo Cerberus in exchange for a Fort Knox worth of fodder and food. And that's all that matters, right?!

So I guess complacency and fear of change is not unique to the RDM forums. Color me surprised. Not kidding, either.

[Supersun]

Except we go back to the point where generalist design doesn't work in MMORPGs.

Generalists work when in numbers they put the specialist to shame, but actually striking a balance between a generalist and a specialist is a near impossible task that realistically has to rely more on how content is developed then how the jobs are balanced themselves.

[Duelle]

Generalists work when in numbers they put the specialist to shame, but actually striking a balance between a generalist and a specialist is a near impossible task that realistically has to rely more on how content is developed then how the jobs are balanced themselves.

There's a reason I mentioned multi-classing and gear. The generalist is very dependent on mechanics within and outside the class to work properly (if it is possible at all). Yes, this includes the TP system, how job abilities are assign/designed, how multi-hitters affect that part of the game, relative strength of mobs, general expected tactics, and encounter mechanics and so on.

[Ketaru]

And buffing BST pets ... wtfo. That's for the BST discussion not the RDM one, take it over there.

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

[Supersun]

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

To be fair he does have a point. You aren't as much asking for Red Mage to get pet buffs as you are for Pet jobs to get more pet buffs in general. There's nothing about Rdm in particular that screams that we should get new pet buffs exclusively (and if anything I'd think Bards would be the best candidate for them).

Asking for more pet specific buffs is better suited for a pet job forum and would probably reach SE's ears a lot easier then posting your ideas here.

Not that I think adding more pet exclusive buffs is that great of an idea anyway. I mean do we really need any more of them when the current existing ones aren't even used?

What really needs to be looked at is how when buffs start entering the picture that only half of a pet jobs damage is increased while every other job skyrockets ahead.

I can understand SE's concerns with buffing pet jobs. I mean pet jobs would clobber dedicated DDs if both the master and the pet received the full power of every buff the master received in high buff situations.

I think the real issue lies in the attack speed of pets compared to fully buffed players. It's not as much all buffs as it is Haste. Players suddenly gain a +500% damage increase with 80% haste while pets still stay the same.

One solution might be to add a job trait that transfers a portion of the masters delay reduction to the pet as well. Not the full amount necessarily since a 80% hasted sheep would pretty much murder everything that lives and breaths while being disposable.

Either way what pet jobs really are asking for is for their pets to scale in power along with players so that Bsts have more of a place in high buff scenarios. I don't think pet exclusive buffs are the best way to accomplish this though and other alternatives should be considerded.

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it' be nice if maybe we could get something "official" stated regarding the future of RDM other than our lolEnhancing?

Doesn't really matter to me since I'll take what they say with a gain of salt until I actually see them follow through myself.

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Edit: Can we stop treating that triangle at the bottom of everyone's post like a ratedown button. We do NOT need to start a post banning gang war between the pro and anti melee crowd as all it's going to accomplish is essentially erasing this thread.

[saevel]

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

Your advocating a buff to pet jobs on a RDM update thread. While the idea isn't a bad one, and I do agree pet jobs need fixed, this is not the place to do so. And kindly GTFO with the strawman arguments. At no point in time did I EVER say enhancing was for melee only, I said it was critical for a melee build and that SE should pursue that route for potential melee buffs. Our enhancing spells are as follows,

Enspells -> Melee orientated
Phalanx -> Melee orientated, although can apply to any situation where your getting beat on
Aquaveil -> same as Phalanx
Spikes -> Melee orientated similar to Phalanx
Barspells -> generic resistance, WHM's overshadows us so much it's not funny
Gain Spells -> generic stat up, once Gain-STR / DEX are out then it effects both sides equally
Stoneskin -> easy to cap with half enhancing magic

Then
Haste / Refresh / Regen / Blink -> just as effective at 0 enhancing as at 426 enhancing.

I'm fairly sure everyone can see where this is going. Outside Gain-INT / Gain-MND SE simply hasn't given us any magic enhancing spells that actually use enhancing magic. This goes back to the "mage only" RDM's who leveled it for merits and gear. They have absolute sh!t enhancing magic and won't macro swap to case whatever little spells they do cast. As enhancing is notoriously annoying to cap, these people have ~zero~ interest in any adjustment that would force them to go out and cap enhancing magic.

Now please continue the trolling.

[cidbahamut]

Our enhancing spells are as follows,

Enspells -> Melee orientated
Phalanx -> General purpose
Aquaveil -> General purpose
Spikes -> General purpose
Barspells -> General purpose
Gain Spells -> General purpose
Stoneskin -> General purpose

You can make the case for enhancing magic being more important for melee, but please don't pretend that anything in that list other than enspells is melee oriented.

This goes back to the "mage only" RDM's who leveled it for merits and gear. They have absolute sh!t enhancing magic and won't macro swap to case whatever little spells they do cast. As enhancing is notoriously annoying to cap, these people have ~zero~ interest in any adjustment that would force them to go out and cap enhancing magic.

Now please continue the trolling.

What do full AF idiot RDMs have to do with anything?

[SpankWustler]

"Things are what things are, though" is pretty recurring theme of this thread, and while it is arguably appropriate to use here for RDM, it is that kind of mindset that I think got my other job into such a mess in the first place.

For years and years, BSTs told themselves that the job is fine so long as it can solo things. And looking at some of the comments over on that forum...

I don't really see it as the same argument, even though it's the same statement. To make Red Mage as viable a melee as it is a spell-caster, multiple elements of the job would require radical additions and even then it would be swimming against the current of FFXI's battle system. That kind of goal just doesn't seem reachable, in a big part because it goes beyond the job itself.

The changes to Beast Master would be as simple as job abilities that forfeit pet and master survivability for offense, but the anti-social elements in the Beast Master community would never ask for something that's actually useful. I swear, for people who like to be alone they sure talk a lot. Which bugs me as well to be honest, since I like the aesthetics of the job so much that I leveled it.

Of course, if the goal is just "stuff better than current en-spells by a large margin", I'm sure nobody would complain about Red Mage gaining a few more self-buffs for the purpose of hitting things with things. Well, I probably would complain if they did that instead of adding new enfeebling magic, but the new team seems to at least WANT to add stuff so I guess they would do both.