[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Daniel]

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

[Hyrist]

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

If it was a dead concept, so many players wouldn't be so loud about it. It's one of the few things that define this job as it's archetype away from the now many other mage job archetypes available in the game. And while I completely agree that for HNM fights our primary source of contribution should be magical, those improvements should not come at the full neglect of our martial status. As the level cap goes up, there's going to continually be more content Red Mage is going to pull their blades out for, as the wealth of content for this game just gets richer. (Till we hit PS2 limit.)

Cure V, and the concerns about it have been addressed through Scholar update patch notes: They're trying to avoid the same bread and butter cure power and give alternatives. We're probably more likely to see Regen III on our list than Cure V if that is their approach. If the lack of Cure V makes you want to hang up your hat, continue to play WHM.

Red Mage is one of the most popular mains in the game, it's healthy for the community that it shaves off a few people to other jobs they enjoy more.

As far as the Aura type buffs, that's a valid question, IMO, and it wasn't addressed. I'd like to see what their response to that is.

The way you word this worries me.

Why should it?

It exactly follows the "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" approach that has been the Red Mages staple since people played it. I've said so many times before Dulle, but your approach to the job is too extreme. The job needs to be tweaked, not re-written. More important than the Melee aspect of the job is to improve the use and effectiveness of our buff/debuff game, then our Melee side can either tie into that, or be given a general performance buff to compensate for the separation.

If I'm to gander a speculation as to what was said. Essentially they like the fact that our debuffing concepts and our melee concepts are kept separate roles. Essentially, that when we are put in situations in which our debuffs are not effective because the monster is dieing too fast, that's when we're pulling out our swords. And the situation between when you melee, and when you focus primarily on debuffing, is a gradient as opposed to a checklist. The longer the fight, the less our melee becomes effective and the more effective our debuffs become. (Buffing being universal between these)

I can live with that.

However. That means I want more effectiveness in both melee and debuff aspects for their intended areas. (HNMs need to be more susceptible to debuffs and have a wider array of debuffs to inflict them with, and RDM's melee performance should be more influential on lesser monster. Either by a straight performance boost, or a means of assisting the party's damage better.) So far, SE's shown that that's about what they're doing, but in their usual "This is way too vague for you to start harping on us about the specifics until the patch is out." deal.

I'm interested in seeing where SE goes with this, and am glad that the 'stri' file was actually for Red Mages. Looking forward to seeing the job adjustment details.

[cidbahamut]

If it was a dead concept, so many players wouldn't be so loud about it.

Yes they would.

Cure V, and the concerns about it have been addressed through Scholar update patch notes: They're trying to avoid the same bread and butter cure power and give alternatives. We're probably more likely to see Regen III on our list than Cure V if that is their approach. If the lack of Cure V makes you want to hang up your hat, continue to play WHM.

Regens don't cut it when the going gets rough, and I think we both know that. We can argue the effects Cure V will have on job balance until the cows come home, but if you think getting Regen III is going to do anything for our healing game you are sadly mistaken.

[Duelle]

It exactly follows the "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" approach that has been the Red Mages staple since people played it. I've said so many times before Duelle, but your approach to the job is too extreme.

Zirael's mind translation covers why nicely:

You will not be allowed to tank any HNM, if you try it using some nifty trick, we’ll cripple you even more, so don’t even think about it. Refresh/Haste/Gain-STR or GTHO.

Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

[Ketaru]

Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

[Zirael]

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

[cidbahamut]

We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

[Zirael]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

You are right, I was talking about RDM being a tank, not meeling HNMs to death in particular.

[Duelle]

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful.

Magic Fencer =/= buff bot. That's for starters. We've had this conversation before, though, so I won't do a rerun of that discussion.

I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter." It's not hard to figure out why such opinions have been formed, as we've argued the cons time and again, but if you want to argue such a dismissive play style boasts a meaningful longevity to any player... well, let's just say I'll argue against it and leave it at that. Nobody likes being excluded, and the unfortunate root of that problem in FFXI tends to lie in a lack of use. Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot, but the importance of RDM's conceptual package can not ignore its martial side like it has up until this point. Even the "Melee fodder, magic bosses" line is a farce if all you do or are expected to do is fight "bosses" with the job (Which is basically Voidwatch since you can't interact with outside mobs during a fight). Or in Abyssea's case, the inconvenience of making others wait to shift atmas around after farming pops.

Well said.

[Supersun]

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

Make it possible to use Cure V.

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.

Add sphere-type spells.

For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.

I suspected these were pointed at as as much at Rdm as they were at Sch. (especially since they mentioned Gravity II which they then said was Rdm specific).

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I also agree that I hope that instead of getting Cure 5 we get a more unique style of cure.

Adding Cure 5, regardless of balance implications, will do more to destroy the identity between mage jobs then any other single spell.

There are lots of unexplored alternatives to curing and I would be disappointing if SE decides to take the lazy way out and just stick the Cure 5 bandage on the job.

Don't get me wrong, we need some form of curative assistance since Blu can heal better then Rdm atm, but Cure 5 is like trying to remove a splinter with a chainsaw.

I feel that by adding Cure 5 it will have balance implications for the maximum power of enfeebles we will be given later on.

If we can heal almost as well as a Whm they aren't going to let us 'enfeeble like a Rdm' as well.

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Some might say that Cure 5 is the only alternative to safely keep a tank at full HP after a dangerous TP attack.

First off there are plenty of other ways to protect a tank from a follow-up after a dangerous TP attack other than Cure 5.

Second, should Rdm be able to do this by himself? Rdm isn't a Whm. Rdm isn't a healing specialist. I'm not saying Whm should be the only option, but Rdm shouldn't be Whm lite.

Rdm is a hybrid and if Rdm has enough healing power to primary heal entire alliances from these Super HNMs with deadly TP attacks and dangerous follow ups then frankly...the games too easy and/or there's not enough difference between Rdm and the specialist.

I don't believe Whm should be the only option, but frankly Scholar should be the second choice. Yes, Rdm gets cure spells a few levels earlier then Scholar, but Ranger also gets more accuracy bonus then any other job so clearly they are supposed to melee. I don't want to base a jobs entire performance off one little thematic snippet.

If you really want to debate thematics Rdm gets less cure potency gear then summoner, a job without a native healing skill. I mean realistically the most a Rdm is going to have is around ~30% with 3 pieces of gear. You know...I'd have to check it but even Pld might get more PC gear then Rdm.

Can you honestly say a Rdm should be out healing a Sch with Light Arts and addendum White?

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Also, is it possible to separate the evasion down effect and the slows movement speed from Gravity II. I know there are plenty of monsters that it might be nice to actually have that evasion down effect from gravity except that the monsters immune to it because SE is to afraid of a kite solo.

I'd almost prefer Gravity II was just a more powerful evasion down effect without the movement speed reduction so it's actually useable on things where we need it instead of it just being the an extra safety net when Sleep, Sleep II, Bind, Break, and Gravity are all resisted on monsters that are easy enough to cap accuracy anyway.

Unless the devs actually feel like making this Gravity actually useful on tougher things...that would be welcome as well.