[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[cidbahamut]

Curious how I'd destroy RDM without taking away from it.

But as you can see, Spanky, stuff like that.

Well here's how I see it, correct me when I steer off course.

You want Red Mage to be asked to jump to the front lines for content beyond trivial stuff like exp mobs, right?

To do this Red Mage has to offer something from the front line. At the moment all it has to offer is inferior damage.

For meleeing on Red Mage to be viable in the metagame it has to bring something to the table and there are only two things I could see it bringing: Damage or some sort of utility.

Bringing damage to the table doesn't make sense as it would have to be equal to or better than a dedicated DD class. This is because the usefulness of DDing is dwarfed by the usefulness of having a competent mage in the backlines. DDs are a dime a dozen and mages bring more to the table right from the start, so we have our current situation in which Red Mage's best contribution is to be a mage for the party.

The other route would be to add some sort of utility that can only be applied from the front lines. This means we would have to muscle in on Dancer's turf and outdo them as well. Dancer's a cool class, don't get me wrong, but there isn't an overwhelming demand for their services. If we're going to fill their role, our front line services need to eclipse the monstrous utility that we can already offer from the back line.

Both of these scenarios are enough to make even the most brain dead game designer sit up and go "hey, this seems a little off, maybe we shouldn't do that".

As long as we're a powerhouse of a mage, we're going to be called on to head to the back line because that's where we can be most useful to a party. The only way to change that is to either take away from our mage side or add such amazing front line functionality that we become Dancer 2.0 premium edition, both of which strike me as radically altering the class to the point where it is no longer the class I have been enjoying for years.

The conclusion I keep coming back to is that you wish to play Red Mage as something it is not and wish to alter it until it meets that vision and is no longer the Red Mage I know and love. That is why I give you grief, because your vision threatens my favorite job. Surely you can understand that.

[Seriha]

Well, for me and others, the sentiment has been about before these expansions with all those new jobs hit, some with ideas we'd been wanting for RDM. Some might be okay with cutting their losses and migrating to BLU or whatever, but ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, nor does it mean those alternatives are what we'd been looking for out of RDM.

I can get the situation not being a problem for those who opted to make due with what the class had been given and shared with other jobs, but shutting down growth even though others view it as problematic is a sticking point, especially when some want to run around spewing the jack of all trades line. You can be optimistic about the 91-99 game. I've got the history of the game prior to that telling me not to be. Why? Well, best some can surmise is that SE is afraid of RDM, but not for the right reasons.

[SpankWustler]

You can be optimistic about the 91-99 game. I've got the history of the game prior to that telling me not to be.

I can wrap my head around this part. It surprised me that no aspect of Red Mage was fleshed out when the ability to be a great (if very situational) disengaged tank was severely diminished, and the job has gotten very little of use compared to the growth of other mages until very recently. That seems to be changing, currently, but a lot is unknown.

I can understand the development team being more focused on jobs that can't fill their niche very well, or jobs that tripped, fell, and died at the starting line like Puppetmaster and Scholar. I also get that having an unchanging spell and job ability list for years and years isn't exactly fun.

Even the tier II merits, while useful, were basically more of the same. Composure and Tier II En-spells were pretty pointless at the time they were added. Not that Red Mage was alone in this particular boat, lots of jobs didn't change much, but it does seem like a pretty dull cruise. Even when a job operates smoothly, new toys that actually see some use are nice.

After that, though, things get foggy. It's not easy to logically connect the feeling of "I just went through my millionth buff cycle and cast my millionth Blizzard spell, and it feels just like the third one. Oh, except I used a slightly better Slow spell." with the thought of "I shall follow in the steps of my forefathers who hit things with swords while wearing red pants by hitting a thing with a sword while wearing red pants. It is a proud tradition."

If hitting more things with more swords is the direction some people want the job to go, okay. The only reason you need to suggest a change to a job you play is because you'd enjoy it. I disagree with that direction being worthwhile for Red Mage, obviously, but please don't let that stop you.

The idea of hitting more things with more swords being the direction the job should go because of what the job was in single-player games a decade ago, however, confounds me.

[Supersun]

The idea of hitting more things with more swords being the direction the job should go because of what the job was in single-player games a decade ago, however, confounds me.

Well, let me ask this. What makes a Final Fantasy, a Final Fantasy?

It's not simply just sticking on the Final Fantasy name on a game. I mean there's a few games out there that brandish the name Final Fantasy yet a lot of people probably wouldn't consider them one.

A lot of what makes a game part of the Final Fantasy series is the shared expectations behind the genre, some basic commonality of the lore itself that people tend to expect in a Final Fantasy game.

Red Mage's not being proficient with the sword is probably the biggest breech of lore in XI from what's expected of the Final Fantasy series.

Now, the importance of lore varies from person to person and what each person considers an unforgivable discrepancy is different, but just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean plenty of other people do.

People bring up that Red Mage wasn't very good at melee in previous titles, but that's not an entirely accurate statement. Sure, specialized DD jobs like Mnk and War would outperform Rdm, but Rdm actually did better then other light DD jobs like Thf and *gasp* Blu.

Now I'm not saying that just because Rdm could do more then a Blu in previous FF titles that they should do more now. XI's version of the Blue Mage added a melee twist to it's backstory where it's more fitting for its stronger prowess, but this is a case of adding to the history of a job as opposed to taking away from it.

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.

When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.

This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.

The problem is nearly every other job is more fitting for just about any other type of proposed idea because Red Mage has no thematic backing to claim anything as its own. The only thing that Red Mage can even attempt to claim is enfeebling, but even then SE is too scared to actually release powerful enfeebling spells that make a noticeable difference compared to what other jobs can contribute.

While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.

I mean for crying out even Bard is getting delegated the idea of a Magic Defense down song before Red Mage.

This is ultimately the problem. You may say you are optimistic of SE's vision of the future, but let's actually look at the past. Red Mages have been clamoring for ANY sort of change over the last 5+ years and have received virtually nothing. If we continue to receive the hand me down of spells that other specialized classes have outgrown, Red Mage will be in a sad spot when content leaves abyssea.

Everything will be fine and dandy if they follow through with their manifesto post and revolutionize the job with new enfeebling and enhancing spells. You might debate whether that is Red Mage or not, but at least it will have its own lore and things to claim its own. SE's track record has shown that their bark is bigger then their bite and more often then not they under balance jobs as opposed to overbalance them. I'm going to remain skeptical of anything they say until I can see the results with my own eyes.

I'll be realistic, the only way I can see SE fulfilling their demi-god creating manifesto post for Red Mage is if they give us Haste II exclusively.

If they do that I'll be hanging up my feathered hat for good. I refuse to be put through ToA all over again.

[Duelle]

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.

The class would have been rather plain if it had nothing more than just auto attacks with some white and black magic. Console FFs didn't require actual synergy between different aspects of each class because the way combat was set up didn't permit for said synergy and was trivial given the way console FFs' battle systems are set up.

Looking at RDM, its versatility actually hurt the job more because, again, the different aspects of the class were not working in synergy with one another. Rather than design the class in a way that these different trades work together to help the RDM earn their spot, the devs gave us a job that for all intents and purposes was as close to a carbon copy to the console RDM as you can get from a design perspective...with shortcomings that were trivial in console games but make or break your game in an MMO.

When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.

If you want to talk about the lore, I can tell you this: our job has next to nothing as far as XI is concerned. Someone tried to bring up Rainemard in the melee thread, but the AF story has next to nothing about RDM itself, and instead talks about a guy named Rainemard who happened to be a RDM, was an excellent swordsman and got quartered and stuffed in a box for sticking his nose where it didn't belong. That's not much to go by, really.

This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.

The main issue here is that as is so clear, we are not unanimous on what the theme of RDM is.

While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.

This is just another example of concept and practice clashing. We wouldn't have this problem if the job was called something else and was built around a different archetype.

[Greatguardian]

You're still assuming that Magical Red Mages have to "make due" without their Melee aspect. We don't. Magical Red Mage is an extremely powerful class, and choosing to pursue and enhance its stronger, more versatile side is hardly an act of consolation.

It's not a matter of shutting down growth, it's a matter of wanting to direct that growth towards further enhancing the already powerful and useful aspect of Red Mage rather than directing it at the underused and underpowered aspect in the hopes that it might someday be decent enough for those that won't let it go.

[Seriha]

Which is also why I like to point out that, for as a company people love to criticize for all its flaws, the implication they got RDM "right" after its initial "major adjustment" before most of us even played the game is confounding in its own way. Their original thoughts might have worked for the 50 cap, but as jobs grew, our skill ratings fell behind, others got better gear and WS, and RDM basically got very little over this span is something we'd been trying to point out way, way, way back when. In contrast, a Haste naked is as potent as a Haste fully decked out. Same with Refresh until +2 legs. Cure Potency gear was more on the rare side until Abyssea. I call it "making due" because those have been what people historically sought of RDMs throughout this game's lifespan if not BECAUSE SE dropped the ball, got lazy, was angry a RDM soloed something, felt other jobs were more deserving of attention, or whatever. They messed up with the job once. Some of us feel they didn't get it right even after all that.

Overall, you're talking to someone who thinks SE's been way too timid about their job adjustments. More than 1-4 jobs could see meaningful attention in any given update. I don't believe that giving RDM attention today means PUPs would never get any, though some seem content with the inverse since a RDM ate their baby at some point in their FFXI career. We can't totally ignore how the old days worked, archaic in their time sinks and plethora of still-broken or uninspiring events. There's still the simple language barrier. Would the RDM of today be the one we have now if SE was more open 8+ years ago? I'd like to hope not, but, well, it's time to chip away at that handicap.

[saevel]

You guys do realize that a good number of posters here are just BG trolls right? Their actually trying to stir up sh!t to create lolz discussions over on their board.

Anyhow, CDC seriously changes what RDM can do. And I agree with sun that RDM's dark magic skill is kinda a downer for some of the /DRK spells. I tend to use them while we're waiting for the THF's to build TH on the NM before the "kill it" order is given. There is nothing wrong with the concept of RDM as a hybrid melee, there is a function and a role for it. The only thing missing is high level gear and some JA's. Something does need to be done about non-CDC RDM's, and allowing RDM to use sword/dagger EX WS would instantly fix that part. I'd love the ability to aoe my enspells so that everyone in the group can benefit from them. SCH should not be better as using RDM unique spells then RDM's are.

[Rayik]

I advocate melee RDM because it is a living, existing facet of this HYBRID job. Currently, a facet of the job is not working, so I am here voicing my opinion.

I love our mage-side. I am in no way calling for any kind of nerf to our magic, nor am I in any way trying to say that we should be melee DD's 24/7. RDM is a versatile hybrid job; not a pure mage, not a pure DD, a hybrid. One thing most of us can agree on, is that one part does not work in a group setting. Hence, the cries of the pro-melee side for a fix, since our magic is already fairly group-friendly.

Being a Pure-mage RDM is completely ignoring much of the job's versatility and the fact that it is a hybrid, and not a pure mage. If you're content to play this way, you're the one with the screwed up "vision" of the job. Play what you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert if you can't acknowledge one of the major parts of the job. Melee is there, it's in the game, it's our lore, our AF/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Magian weapons, it's right in front of our faces, and it doesn't work as advertised. Stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala cant hear you" all you want, but it's there. If you choose not to acknowledge a sizable facet of the job, you can in no way say your "vision" of the job is correct.

Just because you happen to enjoy one side of it, doesn't make the rest of us wrong for enjoying the other. That's why I advocate fixing melee without hurting the magic.

I don't want "Overpowered", I just want "functional."

The main issue here is that as is so clear, we are not unanimous on what the theme of RDM is.

I think it's clear at this point even the developers don't know what the job is. Whoo, Enhancing Magic ftw.

[cidbahamut]

I advocate melee RDM because it is a living, existing facet of this HYBRID job. Currently, a facet of the job is not working, so I am here voicing my opinion.

I love our mage-side. I am in no way calling for any kind of nerf to our magic, nor am I in any way trying to say that we should be melee DD's 24/7. RDM is a versatile hybrid job; not a pure mage, not a pure DD, a hybrid. One thing most of us can agree on, is that one part does not work in a group setting. Hence, the cries of the pro-melee side for a fix, since our magic is already fairly group-friendly.

I'm think I'm ok with this so far. Magic side's doing ok, melee side not so much.

Being a Pure-mage RDM is completely ignoring much of the job's versatility and the fact that it is a hybrid, and not a pure mage. If you're content to play this way, you're the one with the screwed up "vision" of the job. Play what you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert if you can't acknowledge one of the major parts of the job. Melee is there, it's in the game, it's our lore, our AF/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Magian weapons, it's right in front of our faces, and it doesn't work as advertised. Stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala cant hear you" all you want, but it's there. If you choose not to acknowledge a sizable facet of the job, you can in no way say your "vision" of the job is correct.

This is where I start to take issue. Melee is not and never has been a "sizable facet" of the job. Red Mage has be capable of engaging enemies, but that's not quite the same. Red Mage's claim on melee is limited to outdated and broken enspells, composure, and the names their AF sets bear. Red Mage in FFXI has never had the tools to put itself on the front line and simultaneously make the claim that it is providing more there than it would in the back. No amount of lore can change the unpleasant realities of the game mechanics, design, and the metagame that inevitably arose from them.

My vision of the job isn't any more right or wrong than your own, it's simply based in the reality of the here and now rather than the fuzzy ideals of "what Red Mage should have been"; And much is it may surprise you, I do maintain a melee build, it's just that I've found I can always do a lot more in just about every situation if I'm geared strictly for maging it up. It's not that I don't care about melee, I've simply come to terms with the limitations it has and have accepted that the mage side overwhelms it so completely that it may as well not be there. Red Mage's melee capabilities are vestigial at best.

Just because you happen to enjoy one side of it, doesn't make the rest of us wrong for enjoying the other. That's why I advocate fixing melee without hurting the magic.

I don't want "Overpowered", I just want "functional."

I just don't see how they can be made "functional" to the satisfaction of the Red Mage community without crossing the line in "overpowered". For the most part Red Mage melee is already "functional", it just has no place in the metagame because it's so inconsequential when stacked up against what Red Mage can do in full mage mode.

How would you change Red Mage so that it would be viable on the front lines without being required? Because I can't think of any way to pull it off that doesn't result in serious balance issues or fundamentally changing the job.