Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[FrankReynolds]

They have been telling the dragoons that they are working on increasing the 12 timer limit, and that some of the shared timers are only temporary. Perhaps they could consider moving some less used JA's to shared timers on thief temporarily so that they could add new ones. I don't think anyone would mind if flee and hide shared a timer for example. There's probably a few other things they could get creative with as well.

[Babekeke]

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

[Lokithor]

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

[Arcon]

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

[Babekeke]

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

Possibly. I didn't count up how many jobs like drg and thf have to see. It's just what Camate posted today.

[FrankReynolds]

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time. Also keep in mind that I was talking about a temporary change, just so that they could add more abilities sooner than later. I agree about mug too. I wouldn't mind loosing a little functionality on mug (they apparently don't like us using it anyways), if it meant getting a new JA that was actually good. I would gladly just delete mug for something as useful as bully. Maybe legion NMs will be mug worthy?

[Babekeke]

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time.

Flee >> Deodorizer >> Silent Oil >> Hide. Ok I haven't done it since I was coffer hunting for my AF, back when exp mattered.

[Duelle]

To open, I want to apologize for posting in this format. My little conversation with Karbuncle got me looking over the THF forums and I'm doing some back-tracking as a result.

1) THF has no real use. TH2 is the best form of TH in terms of noticeable boosts, anything past that is all pretty much unnoticeable/unseeable boosts. So we're not even good for that beyond placebo effects.

TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF. The problem with this is that such an approach clashes with point 4. I just don't know how career THFs would react to FFXI THF emulating Locke and Zidane more than the FFTactics THF (AKA the "all I'm good for is stealing rare equipment off bosses" job).

2) We have no real DD capabilities, similar to a lot of lesser DD jobs, Except THF falls further behind than others in this Gap. Since 75 the gap between THFs power and the next best DD has widened much further. In this field, we don't ask to be top tier DD, simply to have the gap lessened.

A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough) and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start. As per the raise dagger damage thread, dagger damage should be bumped up a bit, or add a JT to THF to give the slight boost to dagger damage in order to not mess with itemization (call it Dagger Mastery or something like that). By the way, Aura Steal is a terrible idea, and whoever thought it belonged on THF has been playing too much FFTactics.

3) Devs want us to be support class and "Control enmity" and as it stands THF has no real methods to "Control" enmity. 2 Abilities on a shared timer and no way to disperse extra Enmity does not a master make. So as far as the Devs "vision" of the job goes we even lack capabilities there

Making a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition. That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.

4) Over-all Lack of Uniqueness of the job, usefulness of the job. Right now the only thing keeping THF relevant is ignorance of Treasure Hunter, But once that becomes common knowledge I doubt THF will keep its head above water.

5) We're all disappointed by the BS Responses we got earlier, which basically to summarize tell us things like "Aura Steal is too powerful to separate from Steal, or Reduce timer", and "You can't have Subtle Blow because You melee for TH upgrades, and we feel that balances it", etc.

Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

6) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.

Agreed. THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing. Other than that, the job needs lots of help.

If the above has been disproven or debunked or argued against, consider this a friendly bump from an outsider to the job. =P

[Babekeke]

TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF.

Past TH2/3, it is. And they still won't.

A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough)

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.

and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start.

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.

Making a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition.

It's called 'Dancer'.

That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.
Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.

THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing.

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.

Increasing the Eva cap would actually help THF quite a lot. Being able to cap out eva on a lot of mobs, but still getting hit every 5 attack rounds is ridiculous. Or as I believe has been mentioned before, a JA like perfect counter, but perfect evade. 1 min JA lasts for 30 seconds or until hit: "Evades the next attack that would have hit you". This would at least boost capped eva up to getting hit once every 11 attack rounds, making /war tanking much much better and mp efficient.

[Duelle]

Past TH2/3, it is.

I meant as a whole. As in, it's miniscule and there mostly for thematics instead of having notable effects in combat.

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.

Still does not mean an additional damage modifier wouldn't hurt.

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.

BS response is BS.

It's called 'Dancer'.

Which is so much more relevant and far out-classes THF and is always brought to events...oh wait. Really, a job that relies on high critical hits, has abilities that fascilitate them and built-in triple attack should not be pushed into being "support". That's as demeaning as RDM's time as refreshbot. Not to mention by doing that all you're doing is keeping a potentially great damage dealer down.

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.

The game has changed, but some jobs never changed along with it. That needs to be corrected.

If you want to get into nitty gritty, it's a bad gimmick in the long term. It expects things to stay a certain way, which all went down the toilet once people started easily hitting the enmity cap. 1-50 and 51-75 were already different enough, and then 76-99 came in and everything that was set in place suddenly became very outdated. The developers need to go back and either update certain systems or rework jobs in a way that they actually are functional, useful and relevant in events for those who enjoy said jobs. Raising the enmity cap is only going to prolong the problem instead of solve it, by the way.

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.

The concern was more for survivability. I used to see people two-box Abyssea content with a THF/NIN or THF/DNC tanking everything and a WHM attached to them. Then I realized THF has high evasion and can gear for it. Again, it's not a big deal, though if the devs came to me and said "we're being careful because THF with the proper support can tank things" I may consider that a legitimate concern and not a nugget on the pile of BS they've been giving you for responses.

If you want to get inside my head and see what I feel THF needs, or at least what direction it could potentiall grow if someone in the developer team cared about the job, I do have some very rough ideas:

Job Abilities

01 Perfect Dodge
(Changed)05 Steal - Steal success rate is now modified by melee accuracy. Receives a greater bonus to success rate when you're behind the target
15 Sneak Attack
25 Flee
30 Trick Attack
45 Hide
(New)55 Coup de Grace - Your next attack is a threefold attack. The first hit is a guaranteed critical hit, and the other two hits have a chance to critically hit . Stacks with Weapon Skills, but does not stack with Sneak Attack or Trick Attack
(Changed)55 Accomplice
(New)65 Pierce Armor - Afflict the enemy with special defense down.
(New)75 (Merit) Collaborator (3 minute cooldown) - Transfers any enmity generated by you for the next 11/12/13/14/15 seconds to one party member
(New)75 (Merit) Dirty Trick (5 minute cooldown) - Interrupts spellcasting. Additional merits reduce cooldown by 30 seconds
(Changed) 77 Despoil - No longer shares a cooldown with Steal. Possible Enfeebles: Defense Down, Magic Defense Down, Evasion Down
87 Conspirator
93 Bully

Job Traits

05 Gilfinder
10 Evasion Bonus
15 Treasure Hunter
20 Resist Gravity
(New)20 Dual Wield
30 Evasion Bonus II
40 Resist Gravity II
(New)45 Dual Wield II
50 Evasion Bonus III
55 Triple Attack
60 Assassin
60 Resist Gravity III
(New)65 Dagger Mastery - Increases damage rating of equipped daggers by 10%.
70 Evasion Bonus IV
75 Resist Gravity IV
(New)75 Triple Attack II
75 (Merit) Mage Masher - Your auto-attacks have an additional 1/2/3/4/5% chance of interrupting spellcasting
75 (Merit) Ambush
76 Evasion Bonus V
78 Critical Attack Bonus
(New)80 Dual Wield III
81 Resist Gravity V
84 Critical Attack Bonus II
(New)85 Flurry - Applies 5% haste rating to you. Counts as Job Ability haste.
91 Critical Attack Bonus III
(New)95 Triple Attack III
99 Critical Attack Bonus IV

You may not like them, but I do admit that I take issue with treasure hunter, Steal, Despoil, and Aura Steal being used as excuses for denying the job growth as a melee damage dealer. Specially when the foundation is there.