Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Smush]

http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/smushpics/

here some pics from T4 VWNMs of rudra strom and there is one fudo. There stacked ofc but easy to land SA and TA on thes things unstacked i got up to 1.5k.

im tryin to get ls mate to post the parses from that day but i know me and a ukon topped the parse and where really close togeather to be that close is way good enough for me in thf DD. So far only one i cant rape is havhava but no melee can really rape him he has somekinda phy dmg taken -% effect but i did do a 1.5k highest i seen was a 2k ukko on him.

[Alaik]

Ragni, that's because you can't read. ^^;

[Ragni]

Ofcourse i can read. You guys want to decrease gap between the best DD and thf? Seriously what gap? You can DD very well (good example Smush pics), have good evasion and th. Seriously you guys want to be DD like WAR or something lol. THF can do very good dmg. Maybe its time to learn how to play properly on this job instead rage on forums? ^^

[Smush]

Indeed thf can do very well on thes new nms.
I do think we need better hate management and support abilities tho.

also we get DW2 faster 8 lvls 5-7 i say from DW1 so we could end up with higher then 3 if the trend cont. im sure i read a lvl 88 thf had DW2 on alla before thats 5 lvls after DW1 ill try and find a link.
but if so 93 DW3 and 97 DW4 that could be the case and maybe they will let us merit it if we get DW4 /war will be crazy.

[Laphine]

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

[Insaniac]

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

600+ posts saying the exact opposite... I just don't know sometimes....

[Smush]

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

true when haste is a factor we fall behind but most NM are not full time melee unless zerg.
also if you dont have RS or MS mandlic stab is a great choice on high lvl nms ill post some pics when i can of it. and i think for the new nms you need emps on most jobs to see super high # i seen drakebane only max at 1.2 and avg less then 800 same with gekko i expect around that from RR on war with no blood rage.

and im sure i seen a lvl 88 thf test and they had DW2 ill have to find it wish i could test it myself ill have to find a lvl 88 person to sync too ill get on this

[Karbuncle]

You guys want to be the best DDs

No.

the best tanks

No.

You have already very good evasion for tanking

No.

Tanking something harder than Potato (read: Beyond Abyssea), Our Evasion might save us from a few Physical hits, But nothing beyond that, and a tank needs more than "evading physical hits".

Sure, You'll evade a few hits, but the second it uses something other than a physical attack? have fun eating dirt lol. Evasion is nice but it really doesn't hold water against real mobs. THF is not a good tank on anything outside of trash, Like it has been since level 75.

Our Evasion makes us good for nothing but sack pulls and trash mobs, and even on trash mobs a NIN Tanks better, having more shadows and the ability to sub /DNC without losing out on shadows/survivability.

good melee capabilities

Yes and no, Our Melee capabilities are mediocre at best, We shine brightest on fights where everyone stands around doing nothing, since our SA and TA is actually tolerated and in a way bolstered due to limited meleeing.

So in a way, While our DD isn't the best, We shine in hard fights were Melee is not an option. But this is more irrelevant to me, as I've moved beyond the idea of a true DD. I realize our DD isn't the best but i also realize DD is a hard role to fill and unless you're the best you're likely not getting invited, so THF filling a secondary role would help us a lot more.

and th!

While there is a miniscule difference, the difference between Sub-job TH (TH2/TH3(Taru-sash) and Main job TH6+ is nil visible to the point its benefits are largely undetermined. Our TH is best, But likely by 1%. not really enough to justify our place in a party.

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

I can smell your sarcasm, but it doesn't make it any less silly you would suggest this. No one in this thread has ever asked for anything this unreasonable, or come close too.

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs

No one wants that. We've never even asked for that. At least, i can say, I never wanted this.

Face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

We know THF isn't a heavy DD, but we also know TH and mediocre support abilities no one utilizes due to their horrible limited uses and horrible recast timers does not a job make.

The only thing keeping us in parties is our ignorance of how TH works, and with the mist rising on that it looks like bad news for THF.

------------------------------------

So what do we want to take away from all of this? THFs here aren't asking to be the best DD, or the best Tank, we want a real reason to be in a party, Placebo Hunter is not a real reason.

If SE wants us to Control Enmity, Give us more than Collaborator. 2 JA on a shared timer is not enough to make THF desired for Enmity control, its a stupid gimmick like TH. We're asking for more power in the field they want us to have power in, Support and Enmity control.

That is not asking too much. You may be comfortable with THF being a lowly TH whore (and not a good one at that) and a sub-par DD only invited to parties due to a Job trait that kept the job hideously mediocre since level 15, But we are not outside of our boundaries when we ask for something more to the job.

Bully has potential, I'll save my response to that when i see how it works.

[Motenten]

Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

/war's DPS was roughly the same as /nin's. And I *thought* I was factoring in Berserk, but double checking it, it seems I wasn't. So ignore that bit.

Also, since it's not really fair to just give top-end numbers on war, I got unlazy and redid them while including Restraint (50% uptime).

              Hasso     Seigan
BAR (10%)   120.167     99.675
BA  (40%)   106.581     88.412
B   (20%)   106.443     87.160
A   (15%)    80.065     66.378
N   (15%)    79.958     65.403

Total        99.941     82.521

And redoing thf/war (60% uptime for Berserk):

No SA/TA or Rudra's:         62.087
No SA, Solo TA, solo Evis:   64.904
Solo SA/TA, solo Evis:       69.271
Solo SA, TA Rudra:           81.325
Solo TA, SA Rudra:           81.907
SA & TA Rudra:               93.218
No SA (miss), TA Rudra:      76.397

So top end on thf should only be a little behind average war with Hasso. However missing stacked weaponskills, or just not being able to stack half the time, drops overall DPS quite a bit. Though even there, it should be roughly on par with a war that's forced to use Seigan.

On shorter fights (anything up to 3 minutes), war should be significantly ahead due to having JAs up all the time. Even for the values that consider the two DDs on par, war gets a significant additional advantage from using Retaliation, while thf loses DPS from the usual noted issues.


Overall, it seems that *in theory* thf is not in too bad a position, DD-wise, as long as fights last long enough. Parsed data, however, paints a far weaker picture. So I think it would be best to fully lay out how current mechanics are dragging performance down. Making suggestions to relieve thfs of some of those hobbles would probably be a better tack to take in terms of suggestions to SE (but given their response on things like Collaborator and Aura Steal, still not holding out too much hope).


Going /war is the most obvious damage boost, but that's a player choice, not a mechanic for SE to (directly) work on (aside from the fact that 2-handers that go /sam can choose between offense and defense on the fly, while other jobs have to pick one and stick with it for the duration).


Primary weakness of depending on SA/TA: Missing said attacks. Some have suggested adjusting the target arc or something similar. I'd probably suggest going the other direction, and make SA/TA like Feint, where it doesn't wear off until you successfully land the attack (or the 60 seconds duration runs out, whichever). It allows you to maintain a more constant DPS, rather than it falling off just because the mob changes position slightly. It's not a direct boost to DPS, it just pulls the damage values up closer to their true potential.

If SE feels like there's some need to at least have the basics mastered at earlier levels, add it as a job trait: Opportunity Strike (Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are maintained until an opportunity to use them can be found). Can make it like level 75-80 or so.

[Smush]

i think if we could SA just outside of mobs view i.e. side of mob like it was @ 1st i read then it would be fine. i wonder what that ability that complements SA and TA will be maybe it will help.

And you check how good /war would be with DW3 or 4?