Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[noodles355]

The only thing native Dual Wield is good for is so it doesn't unequip my offhand weapon when I change to /BLM for warp when I'm doing quests or something.

Actually, that's the one thing I don't like about native dual wield. I've lost count of the times I've turned up to events as /Blm, assuming two daggers = /nin.

[noodles355]

However if both had empyrean, PUP just jumped up big time (Victory smite is boss),

Have you ever actually compared Victory Smite and Stringing pummel? Assuming all hits connect and no extra attacks, Smite has 5.25FTP and Pummel has 5.75. Smite has 60% Str, Pummel has 32% Vit 32% Str. They both crit. Victory Smite has extra potential because it has more room for extra DA/TA procs, and a 8hit Smite is 9.25FTP vs an 8hit Pummel's 7.75, but not like pup gets a tonne of DA and TA outside abyssea. If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead, howver a mythic Pup should still destroy an Empyrean Pup. Strining Pummel + WS damage boost from Lv90 Kenonken + OAT > ODD.

[JofJAX]

I've lurked these forums for quite a while, and have to say, I like what they are adding to thief but I also think current abilities need to be adjusted. I can see both sides of the Steal/Aura Steal/Mug/Despoil issue (Mug worst of all). Honestly, I don't know why thieves don't like collaborator, its one of the most useful and effective abilities I know of... Anyway, when neither side of an argument can come to an agreement, they compromise.

I don't think it would be too popular over all with the THF populace in general though.

I've lurked these forums for quite a while, and have to say, I like what they are adding to thief but I also think current abilities need to be adjusted. I can see both sides of the Steal/Aura Steal/Mug/Despoil issue (Mug worst of all).Anyway, when neither side of an argument can come to an agreement, they compromise.

So, in the spirit of compromise I suggest a few changes for the better.


1. Steal/Despoil/Mug/Aura Steal/Feint
No thief has been happy with despoil or mug... they are pretty useless, the Devs think otherwise.
Players hate shared timers, Devs seem to love it. So why not go with the middle ground and give us charges.
I say lump them all into a sub menu and give us a Charge System.

Prowler's/Vagabond's/Vigilante's/Transient (dunno what to call it) Arts/Tech/Ways: 2-5 charges (charges increase as you level) on a 5 min per charge timer. (reducible through the current group 1 steal merits and makes these merits useful!) This would be a job ability much like SCH Stratagems with the abilities nested within. Abilities within are usable as long as a charge is present.

Abilities:
Steal Item: Steals an item like normal (combine the current Despoil item pool)
Steal Gil: Steals gil (the current mug, could reduce the amount stolen if needed, or just get rid of it, none of us would care.)
Mug: Stuns the target
Hide: Removes all hate from the Thief regardless of the mob and allows Sneak attack from any angle, also grants Sneak, Invisible, and deodorize. (This needs to be changed and making it share charges is even more reason to do it)

Replacements for Despoil:
Ransack: Steals 8% of the targets attack. Effect lasts 1 minute.
(mob receives effect of Attack down player receives the effect of Attack up)
Bewilder: Steals 8% of the targets Accuracy. Effect lasts 1 minute.
(mob receives effect of Accuracy down player receives the effect of Accuracy up)

Merit-able abilities:
Aura Steal: Dispels an enhancement from the mob and has a chance to apply it to the player
(chance to gain on player increased by merits)
Feint: reduces enemy's evasion by 50%, grants the player 8% evasion boost. Effect lasts 30 Sec.
(1st merit gets the EVA down then each merit after adds 2% evasion boost)

All of these abilities would be under the "Thief's Art" JA, This would allow players to choose what to use when appropriate and still limit the player to 5 min per steal and make the player plan ahead for the upcoming battle. Placing Feint in this category is a sacrifice I am personally willing to make... This also leaves room for stances later should SE ever decide to implement them.

While this is not as much as players want, its more than we currently have so I see it as a win win situation. Also placing other abilities like Hide with in this would allow it the ability to be upgraded to a more desired level by adding sneak, and/or the ability to loose hate on Sneak type mobs.


2. Perfect dodge:
Thieves were told long ago that they would receive an upgrade to their 2 hour. Currently the ability is purely defensive, I would like it to remain this way but to add more to keep in line with the enmity control aspect of the job. Add an enmity stealing effect when activated that steals the ALL enmity of any and ALL party members located behind the Thief.

This could become a risk/reward factor to the ability and add another positioning aspect to the job. Choose to save the dying PLD of the over-nuking BLM? It would also be nice if ranged attacks are also dodged, Nukes and AoE abilities would still damage the THF.

It would also be nice if you could Sneak Attack from any side while Perfect Dodge is active and allow Trick Attack to transfer 25 - 50% of the thief's hate to the player in front of him in addition to the hate generated by the attack. (A smart THF would pre-charge SA and/or TA before using the 2 hour.)


3. Sneak and Trick Attacks
I don't see this happening but wouldn't mind it either, but placing Sneak and Trick attack in another Charge System scenario.

Assassins Art's: Max charge of 2 with a 30 second per charge timer. SA and TA nested within and working like SCHs stratagems abilities.

The idea here is that every 30 sec, the player chooses Sneak attack or Trick attack or to wait until both are up. This would help us thieves in that if a mob is moving too much we can just use Trick Attack to help keep hate on the tank and forgo Sneak Attack. In the opposite way, the THF could use sneak attack more often if they wish to attain hate and/or co-tank. Both attacks could be used together same as they can be now with SATA if desired every Minute. The Sneak and Trick merits could be combined into 1 and lower the charge timer a few seconds.

Another thing that could make a difference is making both Sneak and Trick attacks have a Boost like effect when used over and over again before hitting a mob. This would help us out in fights where we are in the party mostly for hate control and not allowed to melee as much.

[Karbuncle]

Have you ever actually compared Victory Smite and Stringing pummel? Assuming all hits connect and no extra attacks, Smite has 5.25FTP and Pummel has 5.75. Smite has 60% Str, Pummel has 32% Vit 32% Str. They both crit. Victory Smite has extra potential because it has more room for extra DA/TA procs, and a 8hit Smite is 9.25FTP vs an 8hit Pummel's 7.75, but not like pup gets a tonne of DA and TA outside abyssea. If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead, howver a mythic Pup should still destroy an Empyrean Pup. Strining Pummel + WS damage boost from Lv90 Kenonken + OAT > ODD.

Yes and

If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead,

Yes, It more or less was my point, I think in that post i go on to say how THF needs to use a less powerful WS to keep Aftermath up, that was more of an addendum.

Basically i was saying "Victory Smite is a great WS, so in using it you dont sacrifice damage to keep Aftermath up"

thirdly, I'm aware Kenkoken are powerful, and are better, however, i was just not using it for comparison at the current time.

[Arcon]

Actually, that's the one thing I don't like about native dual wield. I've lost count of the times I've turned up to events as /Blm, assuming two daggers = /nin.

I didn't even think about that, but now that you mentioned it's painfully familiar. My idle-set macro used to be indicator of when I had the right sub. Red error message = /BLM. Don't get that anymore..

[SpankWustler]

Honestly, I don't know why thieves don't like collaborator, its one of the most useful and effective abilities I know of...

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of disliking the ability, it's a matter of disliking the small amount of enmity taken and the recast. At 25% Enmity and 1 minute recast, it's nearly useless on anyone who does a worthwhile amount of damage. This basically leaves Thiefy Thiefington with the ability to make life easier for one single healer after a hate reset, assuming that healer is in Mr. Thiefington's party.

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

[Karbuncle]

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of disliking the ability, it's a matter of disliking the small amount of enmity taken and the recast. At 25% Enmity and 1 minute recast, it's nearly useless on anyone who does a worthwhile amount of damage. This basically leaves Thiefy Thiefington with the ability to make life easier for one single healer after a hate reset, assuming that healer is in Mr. Thiefington's party.

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

^ Explained it quite nicely.

Its not that we dislike the ability, its that SE gave us 2 abilities on a shared timer, and now think we're "Masters of enmity control" that everyone wants around, When in reality they're both incredibly limited to the point of uselessness.

I.E: You take 25% of 1 Persons Enmity per minute, that 1 person in 17, and 12/17 of those people you can't even touch with this ability, and that 25% Enmity is dumped on to the THF, so if the THF keeps using that 25% Enmity claim, Eventually the THF ends up tanking, read: THF dies.

We have no way to Move that Enmity, or Disperse it. We need a bit more control over Enmity to be considered for that use. I posted ideas a while back, I'll paraphrase them

*Split Accomp/Collab timers
*Reduce Collab to 30sec
*Reduce Accomp to 2min
*Add Ability "Frame". Grants 25% of your Enmity to Party member - 1min timer
*Add Ability "Disperse" Throws away 25% of your Enmity - ?min Timer
*Allow Coll/Acomp to work cross alliances

Thats paraphrasing those ideas.

[Arcon]

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

I wanna like all your posts. You're the man. The metaphor man.

[Karbuncle]

Despite our best efforts, It appears the development team still refuses to hear our cries

Thief

Bully (Lv. 93)
Intimidates target

I guess it could be somewhat useful When soloing? I wonder if its a Permanent Effect (ala Gnoles and their Call of the Moon), or its a 1-time thing?

I could see some potential in it, but If its just a 1-time "Stun" Type thing I'm putting this next to Despoil as biggest waste of an update in the history of FFXI.

Heres hoping for the best! (I am really hoping for the best ... )

Edit: And really, "Bully" >_>? What is scared of a THF, its probably not intimidation thats stopping it from attacking, its probably rolling on the floor laughing its arse off at the prospect of THF being intimidating.

[Mirage]

Don't worry guys, we can intimidate mobs now!

edit
Karby's edit stole my funny