Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Arcon]

I have to admit I didn't read all of the 34 pages thoroughly and just skimmed over some posts, since I just woke up and spent two hours reading the 75 pages in the General Discussion and felt no need to repeat that again. But I haven't bashed Nebo's opinion in a while, so I just wanted to drop by and comment.

The dev team knows you're upset, but they like things the way they are and don't care about you, so they won't change anything.

Thanks for saying what everybody already knew. The dev team has their own agenda. Occasionally player input coincides with their ideas, which gives the illusion that they actually listen to us.

And quite honestly....I can see no visible difference between treasure hunter effectiveness level 6 and treasure hunter effectiveness level 13. How about throw us a bone and actually TELL us what it does? (I know, I know....what a crazy idea.)

It is crazy, if you look at SE's track record. SE's motto is generally "ignore the community", both in regards to their wishes as well as their inquiries, and always has been.

So you don't want to add items worth stealing because then people might want to steal them?

That's probably the most accurate interpretation of the dev team's response (and general dev team logic) I've seen in here. Bonus points for being funny.

Trait level TH has a dramatically higher effect than the TH proc system they introduced. The difference between a TH3+3 and TH3 THF is going to be almost undetectable unless you have a well-controlled test with a high sample size, and if you do I'd love to see it.

I can't say I noticed that, but then again, I didn't do any particular testing for it. Has there been any real TH testing since the new TH system? If this is true, it could also just be due to diminishing returns on TH in general. To disprove that you'd have to test it using TH gear with low base TH, which is quite hard. Maybe a mass-murdering job, like MNK, with Tarutaru Sash and Dread Atma, then compare it to naked TH2?

Either way, I'm not really fussed, since I have no gaping objections with THF as it is. THF has a myriad of uses, I use it for almost everything. Is it the best at everything? Not by a long shot. What is it best at? TH, and occasional tank maybe. For everything else there's better. Is that a problem? Not by a long shot. People act like THF has it worse than PLD (which still isn't as bad as people make it out to be).

I tank almost everything on THF and do it very well. Sure, NIN+THF would have been better, but I don't have a second account. I also farm almost everything on THF and do it very well. Sure, WAR+THF would have been better, but again, I don't have a second account (and many other people don't either). THF is a nice backup tank, nice holder for NMs, nice to solo mobs on, nice to do quests with, nice to run errands with, nice to do missions with (pretty much every mission in the game, unlike someone said before, probably Nebo judging by the inaccuracy of the statement). THF can do KSNM fights, all kinds of battlefields, all kinds of events, all kinds of pretty much everything, even AoE killing inside Abyssea.

Clearly it doesn't do all of these things as well as other jobs, but who cares? Does it need to be the best? The bulk of the people who complain say they love THF and that's why they want the changes. And that alone isn't a bad thing. However, if you love THF so much, how come you're saying it's useless on every front? And if you hang around people who abuse you as TH whore and just want the absolute maximum amount of items/playtime, then maybe you should work on your social standards instead of complaining about something that isn't broke.

THF wasn't meant to be the end-all solution to your problems. It won't make your ex fall in love with you again and it won't bring your nan back to life. But it will provide you with a great gaming experience (assuming SE still lets you play after this month's billing fiasco). It does have issues (even reasonable issues like everything the dev team didn't acknowledge in Camate's post), but it is a fun and useful job.

On the matter of whether it's a damage dealer or not, I have one word to say: daggers. Are you expecting to deal damage with a weapon class that gave you "Hornetneedle"? You can do more damage slapping ass with a wet towel.

There's three ways to judge what class a job is. First, by what it does. Whatever THF does, it isn't damage, so that's not it. Second, by what it's designed to be. As people never fail to point out, THF wasn't designed to deal damage, and SE still maintains that policy. Third, by what people want it to be. Well, that's subjective, you want it to change, I don't. THF has plenty of "mistakes", such as useless abilities, but our role in the game is fine as it is.

[FrankReynolds]

All I got out of that was

1: you agree that the proposed changes are total BS.

2: all of us should go make new friends so that SE doesn't have to fix them.

[Arcon]

All I got out of that was

1: you agree that the proposed changes are total BS.

{word}

2: all of us should go make new friends so that SE doesn't have to fix them.

Not quite sure what you mean, but I think I know which section you're referring to. To clarify: some people are profit-driven, and wanna use whichever tool is best suited for a job. Those are the people that level up WHM or MNK, and sometimes have a THF mule (or even accept being the token TH in their group, without (m)any other purpose(s)). If you're like that, that's absolutely fine, you're a functional player. Good for you.

Other people on the other hand are willing to make sacrifices in efficiency to enjoy the gameplay more. Which is also perfectly fine, in fact, I am one of them. However, if you come here to complain about efficiency, you're either the latter, wanting to be the former, which is just requesting preferential treatment for your job of choice. Or you're the former, wanting to be the latter, which means you're not really a functional player, and either do it cause you have some kind of OCD which drives you to perfection, which means you'll always be unhappy with the game unless SE does exactly what you want and pushes exactly the jobs you want. Or, you're doing it to comply with your group, and accept it despite your will, to remain a part of it for whatever reason. Maybe so you're able to call yourself a perfectionist? Who knows.

The last case was the one I assumed, because people of the first group I generally ignore, and I don't know many people who fall in the second group. So when people complain about this kinda stuff, I assume they belong to the third group, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, seeing as I know a few people who are in there.

[Karbuncle]

The problem is people who generally "Play to sacrifice efficiency" aren't the people who actually get things done without the need to brew and/or throw bodies at it until it dies.

Its not such a catastrophe that I'm(We're) Asking our job to appeal to the type of people who actually accomplish things in this game without a need to toss an alliance of bodies at it.

Yes, THF is wonderful on Petty-Weak No-danger NMs and mobs, Such as Farming, or EP-Dynamis mobs. We're wonderful for TH Whoring, We've said all of that.

The problem, as you even pointed out yourself, We're mediocre at it all, thanks to TH.

MNKs/NINs/PLDs Tank better (based on mobs, Of course, NIN always > THF though, slightly less evasion 1-2 More shadows per cast, better buffs/debuffs for survivability)
Everything DD's better
Any job in the game can Sac pull

The one thing we truly excel at is being a Treasure Hunter whore, You can look at the other roles we "fill because we're there", but everything you named can be done by another job better than THF can do it. (outside of Obviously the things you named TH'ing), and the only reason you do them on THF Is because you need TH, and have no one to do it with.

I'm in the same boat as you though, I'm the only THF with TH6 in my group of friends, I'm always on the job, in Abyssea i'm a wonderful asset and a good tank, But when we do outside Abyssea content its obvious i fall behind, and default to my role of TH Whore because i generally don't do a lot else.

I may act/sound like THF is useless, Because to the majority of people who actually get stuff done reasonably, we are. In a sense, most good Endgame LS that accomplish things have a LS THF Mule, while those aren't big right now, when content moves away from Abyssea's "Pick-up/duo" Era and back into difficult content, I might actually have to get a LS.

I would just like to be able to play my favorite job in that LS without having to dig around for a group (lets face it) dumb enough to bring more than 1 THF per event.

Yes, I know I'm appealing to the wrong type of people, But unfortunately in FFXI if you want to be useful you have to appeal to the people who are also useful. At this point I'm not even asking for damage boosts, too many DD in the game to fill that role properly... Dual Wield III/IV would be nice but i won't cry if we don't get them.

At this point I'd like them to continue down their path of Enmity control, The only sad thing is, I think they're too afraid to make THF useful outside of TH, i can't explain it other than that. Its like they're scared of the job. The comments on Aura Steal being too powerful to make its on JA or reduce its timer is a blaring trumpet to that.

Our job is doomed to Mediocrity not because of it being only great TH whoring, Its mostly do to the fact the Dev team seems too afraid to give THF anything meaningful. In another questionnaire they told RNGs to team up with THFs if they wanted to control/lose Enmity (It was a question about an Enmity douse ability for RNG), which i thought was funny, because they seem to think grabbing 25% of someones enmity once per minute, or 50% every 5 minutes seems to be a viable form of Enmity control in FFXI.

When its not, and since a THF has no way of dumping that enmity outside of Dying, Its only useful for getting the THF killed every now and again, or putting an alliance in danger.

I do love THF, and i know we barely manage to get by on our current Abilities, But I'm just asking for a well deserved and needed buff ANYWHERE. I made suggestions a while back about how to make Enmity Controlling much better for THF, to truly control the tides of battle. Hopefully they'll see them.

But I'm starting to actually feel like you on this, that they actually have their own agenda/plans and nothing we suggest is being considered, they occasional come in and say that, but in reality its just already falling in line with their plans for the job. I try not to be cynical but i do feel like these forums are a charade to make us feel like we're doing something, when its nothing more than them doing what they're doing and digging to respond to things they're already doing like they're doing it because it was suggested.

And yes, Its not the Reps fault.

[Byrth]

I couldn't give a shit what they do to Thief, but I think a lot of the whining here is baseless and could be solved by just changing your job and using a TH mule. I'm sorry that the solution is so simple, but as long as TH is a passive trait that will be the answer.

[Karbuncle]

I couldn't give a shit what they do to Thief, but I think a lot of the whining here is baseless and could be solved by just changing your job and using a TH mule. I'm sorry that the solution is so simple, but as long as TH is a passive trait that will be the answer.

Yes........................................

Yes I know that and thats exactly what I'm trying to change/address. I don't want our job to be "Change jobs if you wanna be useful" :\ Your ideas were good i admit.

I liked your suggestions, But there are ways to make THFs useful outside of TH... I hope. Anyway, What was your suggestion again Byrth? Assuming it wasn't switch jobs, I would like to read your TH upgrade suggestion again.

i Skimmed it last time but didn't truly take it in. Can you Copy > Paste it from Ala and then dumb it down for me? I really think they would be worth mentioning again.

Edit: Wait, How are our complaints that THF is mediocre "Unfounded" when the best solution you have to it is "Switch jobs and use a TH Mule"? Sorry that confuses me a little Byrth... :X

[Byrth]

It's unfounded because your job is doing exactly what it's intended to do and is still highly desired. Instead of requesting that SE make you another job by giving you generic damage boosts, it would be better to ask for something that enhances the role you already has and makes it more fun to play.

Here it is again:

The main "problem" with the way SE has designed Thief is not the lack of DD abilities or their vision of the job. The "problem" is that SE made Treasure Hunter a passive trait that's almost entirely independent of Thief skill and dedication. Over the past few updates, SE has been back-tracking and trying to make it somewhat skill dependent with their goofy proc system, but autoattacking/using SA/TA is hardly "making it skill dependent" at least not to the extent that skill/gear determines DD potential.

If I was going to change it, from a design standpoint, I'd eliminate the current multi-tiered job trait TH system (though I'd keep the tiers) and instead make it dependent on Thief's strong point, spike damage. You borrow the skill/gear dependence of DDing by making it depend on damage. Set a TH effect system with multiple tiers (instead of the three current tiers) with /THF being capped to Level 2, that works like this:
Level 1 +(p-1)*p) : Thief is on the hate list
Level 2 +(p-1)^2*p) : Do >5% HP damage in a single action or >2*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 3 +(p-1)^3*p) : Do >10% HP damage in a single action or > 4*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 4 +(p-1)^4*p) : Do >15% HP damage in a single action or > 6*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 5 +(p-1)^5*p) : Do >20% HP damage in a single action or > 8*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 6 +(p-1)^6*p) : Do >25% HP damage in a single action or > 10*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 7 +(p-1)^7*p) : Do >30% HP damage in a single action or > 12*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
etc.
Where p = (Base Drop rate + TH Gear/100)

This kind of system, if properly balanced (and it's possible the numbers above are not), would force parties to cooperate with THF game mechanics if they want drops. Not only that, but high tiers of TH would only be obtainable by THFs with considerable dedication to the job and a little luck. The highest tiers of TH would be unobtainable on anything notable. And most importantly, if they change the system to something like this, they need to TELL US EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS.

By this system, a 10% drop rate with Level 5 TH would become a 57% drop rate for THF main (TH+3), a 38% drop rate for a less dedicated THF (Level 3 TH and TH+1), or a 27% drop rate for /THF. The above math is actually just an extension of the way the game's TH trait system currently works, though it's unclear how the current "level" system works. Point is, the above system would make the whole party revolve around helping the Thief get epeen damage shots.

Currently, TH is thought to work like this:
* Treasure Hunter gives you one reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself the first time.
* Treasure Hunter II gives you another reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself after the first two rolls.
* Treasure Hunter III gives you a third reroll if a "drop slot" fail to fill itself after the first three rolls.
* "Treasure Hunter +1" or "Treasure Hunter level 1" is theoretically +1% drop rate, although I doubt that's actually how it works. It seems more likely to me that it's +1% drop rate on the final re-roll, but that's another issue. There have been a few people claiming to discover what it does, but statistics say otherwise.

My system would just have that continue. So if you managed to get "TH Level 4" in my system, it would give you a fourth re-roll. Most significant NMs have very high HP, so you'd be going off the Defense markers for them. 6*500 Defense would be 3000 damage, so if you can do 3000 damage to the NM then you could get a fourth re-roll. Do you think the average THF mule is going to pull off a 3k WS on a hard NM even in Abyssea? Not very likely. Could a Twashtar, Mandau, or Vajra THF pull off a 3k WS on damned near anything in Abyssea? Yeah, and they could potentially do a 4200 damage WS for a fifth re-roll. Move over Thief's knife, relics/mythics/empyreans are suddenly better.

What's that? You want me to line up for SATA so you can get an extra TH re-roll and we can get more drops? Pull together the troops boys, we're SATAing as a party for the first time since 2004.

On normal monsters, you could pull an 800 damage SA for 96% HP damage and get level 9001 TH for full drops. Oh my! How broken! A Thief that reliably hunts treasure against TW monsters!!!... As your level goes up relative to the monster, the TH tier that you can easily reach also increases. Is it really unreasonable that old content should get high drop rates the more outdated it is?

[Laphine]

The main issue with THF is that we are the best at something we have no control of. We can't control TH, yet we are desired for TH first and foremost. And this really doesn't bode well when most players want oportunities to show their skill, and to be recognized by others. The main trait on THF puts the player to the background, no other job has an issue like that, and this is why THF is broken.

Abyssea did give us this so desired skill card. We can't tank as well as say NIN or MNK, but we can tank. And player skill really mean something when we don't have all the tools those jobs have. Now we are leaving Abyssea tho. It's the dark ages all over again. And to boot the proposed endgame doesn't need TH. What is THF going to offer then? This worries me a lot.

edit: err, posted too late due lunch. Oh well~

[Karbuncle]

It's unfounded because your job is doing exactly what it's intended to do and is still highly desired.

My fear is, if content continues down Voidwatch and/or Abyssea level path, We're won't remain highly desired outside of old events. (Voidwatch: TH Is useless outside of being a crutch for weaker groups, Abyssea: General populace prefer Procs > TH, even though both is ideal, Low man = name of the game, Less people = less competition, bring Proc jobs and nothing else (outside of Empyrean Weapon NMs of course)

This is where my fear comes from, that TH won't be a "Free ticket" Forever if content continues down its current path, and then the jobs becomes absolutely useless (Outside old content)

Rest of it

I do like the idea, Very Very much so, It gives us solid contribution to the fight as well as removes TH mules from being effective. It relying on our damage might open up to some DD boosts for THF Too. Its well thought out. It makes THF a bit more in-depth as terms of a Treasure Hunter.

the ONLY Problem i could see with this is that say, Imagine a mob like Yagudo Conquistador, Drops a bunch of Scrolls, With a well places SA > SB or DE you could one shot it, and receive all ~7 Scrolls he drops instantly, It would extremely crash the market for :Ni Scroll farmers (And a lot of items) Drastically impacting the economy of farmed items. (I think thats what you said right? 1 shotting something = super drops? Really sorry if im misreading it)

Outside of that, I'd take that improvement to TH and never complain about THF again, Sure it still limits it to just 1 THF For per alliance, But its a vast improvement over the "TH Mule" prospect of the game.

[Byrth]

I guess one easy criticism of the system I propose is "people would only bring Thieves, hoping for a lucky double-TA WS." Realistically though, we're going into everything these days low-man with our parties already bursting with required proc jobs and a NQ dagger THF isn't going to out-WS a Twashtar or Mandau THF. I think it'd just make you bring the "best" Thieves.

Also, if SE is entirely up front about how the system then there wouldn't be much THF-onry damage whoring. If someone WSs King Behemoth for 4210 damage, they aren't going to spend the rest of the fight holding out an impossible 5301. As long as the tiers are wide enough and known, it wouldn't really contribute to dilly-dallying.

If you felt like it, you could potentially tie other mechanisms into this (like skillchaining and MBing off the THF's WS for some additional TH). I'd hesitate to add MB damage though, as it might lead to 16 SCHs and BLMs sitting around with a THF and a SAM going for something like 7-step Darkness.

Edit:
And yeah, things like Ni scrolls would drop off dramatically as they become farmable. On one hand, poor Ni scroll farmers ; ;. On the other hand, is it really reasonable that level 40 Ninja spells and level 50-60 Black Mage spells cost hundreds of thousands of gil? Why is that not already cheap?

That does raise an interesting point though, which is NPCable items. Think about all the EP monsters that drop items you can NPC for a few hundred gil. One-shot a Dhalmel, get a hide, a femur, two meats, papaka grass. NPC it and you've got 1k. Move on to the next Dhalmel. Maybe something like Wisteria Lumber in the tree off Goobbues would be a real issue? I'm sure there's some monster with a shit drop rate on a high-gil NPCable item that I'm not considering, but the solution to it is simply to cap it at TH level 10 or something.

Also, building your cruor chain in Abyssea and you'd kill pretty fast for 500 cruor (~1.25k gil from an NPC) a shot. Considering Abyssea killspeed and the fact that you wouldn't be relying on SA or TA, I'm not sure that there's really a lot to worry about.