Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Yugl]

The Existence of Non-DD abilities does not denote the Idea is was intended to be a DD.

Yes, we had abilities designed to Steal/escape, But they weren't what we were designed to do in parties. I'm quite sure SE didn't intend for THFs to use Flee and hide during a exp party and run in circles, right?

Gilfinder/TH can arguably help an exp party in some small way if you're fighting beastmen or mobs that drop decent items, But its clear these traits were designed for big game.

Also, Hide actually allows you to Sneak Attack from any direction, that had DD implications too. The existence of traits that fit classic THF (Steal, Mug) does not mean its role was not suppose to be a DD. I don't deny SE had other plans for THF than simply a DD, But a DD they were.

Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.

my point being, THF in a party situation was designed as a DD, with implications toward Enmity control (TA). Their JT obviously role-play the job, but i don't think they were what SE intended the job to do in parties or endgame. I think their role was originally a DD, in fact i think their old Manifesto said that, to the point they were thinking of buffing Perfect Dodge to, when active, your attacks would do more damage from behind.

Their plans changed clearly, But it doesn't change the point at one point, earlier in the games life, We were designed as a DD, and a TH whore, where as today its just TH whore.

We're only asking for the gap in DD to be closed a little. That and if you read my other posts I'm leaning more towards useful utility anyway, Already plenty of DD..

You just stepped on your earlier argument though. You said "THF was originally supposed to be a DD" and supported that argument by listing traits and JAs designed for damage. However, I pointed out that you actually have more 'snatch and run' techniques than you do DD techniques. Hence, you cannot support your argument in that way. Also, I recall that hide's additional effect occurred in the same update as Assassin, which would mean it's not an original trait.

Moreover, you have to remember that SE modeled themselves after EverQuest's grinding system, so they would hesitate to improve TH extensively. Without room to improve these features of THF, what else were they going to do? At the time, THF was already considered a potent enfeebler via bolts (One of the few classes to take advantage of acid bolts).

however, I'd be lying if, back in the day when i had TH3 only, that i wasn't asked to switch jobs because i didnt have TH4.

I'd be asked to change jobs to WAR or something so the TH4 THF in denali Bonnet and DEX rings could be on THF, despite my THF having far superior DD gear and would help us kill quicker. So a far inferior THF whos only marketable skill was owning 2 pieces of Armor and being completely gimp and useless in every other field was desired over a THF with TH3 even if that THF was perfect in every other field.

You could be a Mandau THF with perfect HQ Gear, and if you didn't have TH4? you were switching jobs to let a TH4 THF take your place.

That makes total sense though. Who is better geared to do what they need to do? Well, what do they need to do? They need to make items drop. Who has better gear for making items drop? The TH4 THF. Anything else would be like evaluating a WHM based on their melee set. It's irrelevant to the point in question.

All i want is a reason to be in a party outside of TH. You and everyone else reading knows a THF's place in FFXI. We hit the mob, and we go the Fk away. Its how it was at 75, its how it is now (out of Abyssea), and on our current "Vision" Path, Its how it will be at 99.

The only melee I've brought more often than a THF within the past few months is probably WAR, NIN, MNK, and BLU. The last one is primarily an AoE member. Reasons for bringing the other are irrelevant to DD except WAR, which is why I keep saying comparison to WAR is terrible since most DDs don't meet WAR's melee potential. DRG, PUP, BST, DRK, and SAM will sideline more than THF in abyssea. Outside, the situation is similar except for chest drop events (VW for example). In the case of BCNM style fights, who cares? *Any* melee can do those unless it calls for manaburn. "Oh, but you'll pick a WAR over us." Guess what? That applies to *every* other DD except in cases where evasion matters (And NIN + THF hoard that scene).

We are useless in a Endgame situation outside of Loot, and perhaps Killing ourselves (A.K.A Saccing).

WHM is useless outside of healing. WAR is useless outside of meleeing. You should celebrate specialization.

When a job has no uses outside of TH, and the only other thing your party can think of having you do is killing yourself again and again *sac pulls* than theres something wrong with the job. I don't feel I'm asking too much. Give us some abilities that really make us contribute.

No, there's a problem with your LS. Just recently, I mandated a THF (who meleed with me) to get Ambushers to drop for a friend. When the entire game revolves around loot, you cannot belittle the significance of TH. VW is the big step against this, but that's primarily because if VW style drops didn't exist, WAR THF BRD WHM + Excess would monopolize the scene.

This all seems rather meaningless when the Devs think Aura Steal on anything lower than 5 minutes would break the game, if they feel something like that is too powerful for THF we're all fked and we may as well just switch jobs like its been suggested, because this job is going nowhere and you may as well leave the "FFXI TH-Whore" to the Linkshell Mules like it was at 75.[/HB]

Their responses were underwhelming.

[Karbuncle]

You just stepped on your earlier argument though. You said "THF was originally supposed to be a DD" and supported that argument by listing traits and JAs designed for damage. However, I pointed out that you actually have more 'snatch and run' techniques than you do DD techniques. Hence, you cannot support your argument in that way. Also, I recall that hide's additional effect occurred in the same update as Assassin, which would mean it's not an original trait.

I can agree to this. But then we have to look at what THF was used for by the Community. I'd say people invited THF for 2 Reasons. 1) to DD (back in old school? SATA + Viper bite better than all, Magic burst freeze? yes), 2) Trick Attack. So we have 2 base roles. DD, and Enmity.

This just goes back to THF being mislead as they leveled earlier in the game, Today its more obvious (Except maybe to people who don't research all the time), But back then when you leveled THF you expected to hit 75 DD'ing and helping Enmity with Trick Attack, In reality you were a TH whore.

I don't deny the amazingness of our one unique Specialty, I just want a Specialty that lasts more than 1 Melee hit.

Moreover, you have to remember that SE modeled themselves after EverQuest's grinding system, so they would hesitate to improve TH extensively. Without room to improve these features of THF, what else were they going to do? At the time, THF was already considered a potent enfeebler via bolts (One of the few classes to take advantage of acid bolts).

No i don't really remember SE modeling them off EverQuest... Either Way you bring up another point I would like THF to expand on. Give us more ways to hinder/hurt a mob, Even if its through increases other players. Like i listed a while back, a JA that increases Debuff potency on a mob, Or increases Damage dealt to the target for a small window, Stuff that gives us a use for the other 10 minutes of a fight.

That makes total sense though. Who is better geared to do what they need to do? Well, what do they need to do? They need to make items drop. Who has better gear for making items drop? The TH4 THF. Anything else would be like evaluating a WHM based on their melee set. It's irrelevant to the point in question.

This is where our Opinions Differ. No other job in the game was completely rejected for 1 piece of armor. If your WAR didn't have Dusk+1, You'd still invite him to DD. Point was THF was completely judged based on those 2 single pieces of Armor, no other job in the game was judged this harshly.

and its all because THF was useless (in the communities eyes) outside of TH. I'm pointing out the Extremes of it. Of course you would check most people gear first, But if someone was a little less than perfect they'd be acceptable.

I have a feeling I know where you'll take this from here but i'll stop and respond to that when the time comes... :X

WHM is useless outside of healing. WAR is useless outside of meleeing. You should celebrate specialization.

Yah, But all those things you described keep your attention during a fight. TH can be effectively done by hitting the mob once. You can upgrade it via melee, but the effect chance is so low its not worth it (especially on say, Voidwatch where you'll likely die from AoEs, Cause too much TP feed because SE thinks Subtle Blow job Trait would be too broken for THF, or be an MP sink), So you hit the mob, then default to using SA and TA every minute for a chance to upgrade.

Which i admit is a little more than nothing. So i do concede there.

Still, WHM may only be good for curing (which is bull itself, They have Pro/Shell V at higher potency, and Barspells at higher potency/unique buff to them), but they cure the entire fight. They can even go as far as haste cycles if a RDM isn't covering it. they have something to contribute the entire fight.

Same goes for WAR, they DD the entire fight, They're actively participating int he event in a meaningful way that isn't generally regarded as "Worthless damage that feeds too much TP".

I'm not undermining Treasure Hunter, In fact I've mentioned a thousand times i like it and I know its what keeps our job afloat (which is a big thing), I'm simply asking for more than just TH.

Their responses were underwhelming.

yes, yes they were.

I still appreciate them though...

Edit: whoops

No, there's a problem with your LS. Just recently, I mandated a THF (who meleed with me) to get Ambushers to drop for a friend. When the entire game revolves around loot, you cannot belittle the significance of TH. VW is the big step against this, but that's primarily because if VW style drops didn't exist, WAR THF BRD WHM + Excess would monopolize the scene.

I Don't belittle Treasure hunter in any way, I like the Ability, I acknowledge its the only thing keeping our job relevant, I just want other reasons for our relevance. Thats not asking too much

Edit: And to be frank you'd have almost no chance at Ambusher's hose without Blue proc, If you had to pick a THF+WHM, or a MNK+WHM to get Ambusher's Hose, what would you chose? The MNK, because on Blunt he can do every Blue proc, which ups the drop rate of Ambusher's hose far far more significantly.

Of course you can bring both, I won't deny that, Just trying to show you that TH is not as bad-ass as it used to be, Because All Current endgame events (Save neo-dynamis) have actions that effect drops far better than TH could hope too.

And if the game continues down paths similar to Voidwatch, Where TH is actually completely useless outside of upping lights by an amount you could already do with procs, It will phase THF out entirely.

Its still an amazing Ability, I'm just worried with our current path in the future not even TH will save the job.

[Alaik]

People who think TH is just as important as !!! proc's: awesome.

People who think THF should be the worst DD due to daggers: lol. DRK should always have endeath then, except on massive mobs cause a giant scythe to the head would kill birds, bugards, crabs, raptors, spiders, etc, etc, etc. See how f***ing retarded it is to base a game's damage potential off of real physics? In fact I state WAR, DRG, DRK, SAM and ESPECIALLY RNG should all have 100% endeath. Oh, and if there's 2 mobs in a direct line in front of the RNG, he should OHKO them both. Bullets go through people, after all and we can't have someone with a freaking SWORD doing more damage than a gun, anyone who took a history class knows that's unrealistic.

Seriously, I don't want THF to be a broken DD but that is one of the weakest forms of logic for a game ever, and if SE was dumb enough to follow it, we'd all be RNGs, the end.

PS: That 2H update? Guess what, it was due to 1 handed DDs (THF, MNK, NIN, WAR with axes especially) beating 2H. The only difference now is SE has refused to address that 2Hs now roflstomp 1Hs.

Current endgame content has TH relevant on the new HNMs, anything else it has 1.) no effect. 2.) diminished effect (Voidwatch) or 3.) Less effect than !!!

Guess what, it was found out shortly after the abyssea expansion that for everything outside of empyrean drops, the proc is better than TH. If you have ever spent time farming Loki's Kaftans and tried one with just blue and one with just TH you know the damn difference. Yes, you can bring both but if you have a MNK/WHM duo looking to add one person for drops, they're going to take the BLM for AF items, or the WAR for KIs, etc.

Low manning is the name of the game now, and rightfully so.

@Karbuncle: Neo Dynamis, last I checked, the proc system still helped more than TH, vastly so.

I'm not even touching the "TH is a golden ticket" shit again, no one who is capable of typing is stupid enough to believe any THF can get into any event scott free. I refuse to believe we can make quark-gluon plasma yet can't see simple shit about a video game.

[Karbuncle]

The reason i didn't clump Dynamis in it is because Procing simply raises the drop rate to what it was in old dynamis, and thusly TH is quite effect still. But yah, right down to it Proc >>>>>>> Th there too when you get down to it.

Having both is ideal but its hardly an ideal world, and when it gets down to it if you have to chose between a Proc job, or a THF, Irs proc job.

Dynamis is also an exception because THF can proc. Magic(THF/NIN), WS, or JA (THF/DNC best for that).

Trying to acknowledge TH is great but also acknowledging its far less "great" than it was at level 75 is difficult to convey.

[Laphine]

Why TH keeps coming back as an argument? Of course it is a golden ticket, of course it makes THF one of the most desired jobs. But its importance is decreasing over time. Abyssea decreased it somewhat and now voidwatch (the future of endgame) made it completely irrelevant.

Even if TH remained fully relevant, the fact is its mechanics would still be broken. The passive aspect of this trait is the reason we "THF main" don't like the concept of THF=TH. If TH was fun, if it was skill based, things would probably have been different. We, the players, want something that makes us keep playing. We don't want to get bored. TH never contributed with this in our history.

[Nebo]

My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument? Melee is even more gear dependent and less skill dependent than THF.

That depends, what special kind of retard are you? Are you really trying to argue that TH'ing a mob is skill dependant?

Lack of difference between two people with TH6 is a fault of the TH augment system more than THF's general melee capabilities.

OK, no you aren't, you are agreeing with me. Did you read that post you quoted?

When you ask who is better at melee, it's not just SAM1 v SAM2. It's WAR v SAM v DRG v DRK v RNG v MNK v PUP? v BST. Furthermore, when you do get an equal comparison, it's who has better gear. Sound familiar?!

This is a fallacy. You don't get an equal comparison when playing with individuals. You get the guy that maybe WS's at ~180% if he remembers to. Doesn't eat proper food. Might not have a clue how to land his procs clean. Does he have the combat skills leveled, with the weapons to trigger all the weaknesses his job can? Is he flexible? Does he know how to react to various situations? Does he even have PDT/MDT sets if things go south?

Obviously this is is gear dependant, but you are only making my point here. It's about multiple gear swaps for many different situations with the knowledge and skill to use them with appropriate timing. It is an active process that takes a bit of knowledge, skill, rare gear collection.

Applying TH is non of that. It is a passive trait. All the pieces are stupid easy to obtain. No one cares what you do, or what other gear you have. As long as you have TH6. You can literally main hand a THF knife, nothing in the offhand, be wearing nothing but the hands and feet and still do your job the exact same. You either have TH6 or you don't. Beyond that, a discussion of player skill never enters the equation for bringing TH.

Even when at their peak, it just meant THF was no longer supreme in all aspects (Though still monopolizing the "TH maker" role in some situations).

THF was supreme in all aspects? When was this?

You heard it here folks! Only WAR can use PDT+MDT sets even though THF has better access to MDT than WAR.

Actually, they can both reach the -50% MDT cap with gear and shellra V so...no. They don't. The point of that was in response to the comment that "THF should not get updates and is fine because it is a defensive job." Which is not true.

The only point you got correct in that post was the proc!! system undermining TH for VW, but most complaints in this thread don't echo that as much as they complain about WAR (Which is a problem of WAR, not a fault of THF since almost every class can point to WAR at this point and scream overpowered)

.

This is why I think you aren't reading what is being written. No one is crying "overpowered" at WAR. That comparison I used to THF damage compared to other WAR DD can be used for any other DD.

In the DD department, we are not saying we want to be the best, or on top of the pile, or a heavy-DD or any herp a derp nonesense. What we HAVE been saying for quite a while now is that the gap is currently too large.

Especially given that our enmity utility is not useful to anyone, from the response we just got, our steal abilities are going to stay useless because SE is afraid of them. And Treasure Hunter is going to remain marginalized due to Weakness trigger procs, and being given away to other jobs.

Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.

JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug

Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits

So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.

Actually THF was skewed towards parties with tanks, SATA lines, closing distortion skillchains and raping faces with......DAMAGE!!!!! YAY!!!!!! SATA damage and stacking WS was a MUCH bigger relative damage payoff than it is today. THF was a great DD for all of its early life.

Going from the origional description of the job...SE described THF as a "stealthy attacker," that looks for the perfect opportunity to attack from behind and suprise its enemies.

And we've been over this about a million times on this forum. You are barking up a very wrong tree if you are trying to argue things like gilfinder, steal, despoil, mug, coffer picking to help your case. All of these things were taken away or made useless because SE is afraid of them. Whatever their "vision" for the job was then, it has most certainly changed.

[Karbuncle]

i keep waiting for Yugl's response because I like debating with him

[Reaux]

While I appreciate the feedback I have some qualms....

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

This only works on mobs that track only by sight. Many mobs in recent additions track by multiple avenues, the high recast for Steal and Despoil make neither of them a viable option. Steal is a THF ability that defines the job and it seems the tactic to balance it is to not add worthwhile items to Steal and have a high recast as well as limiting what we/if we can steal from NMs?

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.



We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

Allowing us to Dispell effects while simultaneously buffing ourselves is over powered? Most mage jobs have the ability to do both with much smaller recast times. I could see that the concern would be the unique buffs we could steal, but the duration of them is short. With additions of items like Brews that allows us to willingly break all parameters why would this be any different? Also, when compared to jobs like NIN that can effectively escape damage all together that would kill them normally via Ninjutsu I would rethink what being overpowered really is. It could easily be controlled by changing the buffs we can Steal altogether, as not all effects can be dispelled as is.

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

Why not just give us a separate Dispell or Enfeeble ability? Why do they need to be tied to Stealing abilities with arbitrary conditions?

We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.

Every spell in the game has its own recast timer. Why would separating these abilities be that much more taxing than a WHM or BLM recast timers? Melee jobs as it is have far fewer abilities to use than any spell casting job. THF outright ignores most of its abilities anyway. Steal and Despoil are rarely used by anyone. Accomplice and Collaborator are far too situational to be used regularly, and with party setups that require a full alliance sometimes to defeat an NM they are used even less...add in that we can only target 5/18 members in the alliance the ability is further pushed back from use.

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

This is probably the only thing I can understand and agree on as we get subtle blow from the support jobs we generally use on THF and the use of Conspirator.

Again while I appreciate the response, it is obvious that much of the vision is being made useless by the type of game we are currently playing. If THF is to be a hate controller then we need to go back to NMs that are killable by parties of 6 or increase the need for hate management while expanding our abilities to be used on members within the alliance. While I enjoy the increase in TH as much as the next guy I feel it is our only defining characteristic anymore and it is becoming useless. We can no longer keep up as a DD, we have no use of support abilities in most parties, and many items are not as effected by TH as they are by the triggers.

While I don't I see what you want us to become, and I enjoy the vision very much, the implementation of it won't be feasible with the situations the gameplay is currently heading towards. The reasoning behind many of what was said above are also, let us call them what they are, poor excuses for not knowing how to fix something or change it. Or it may even be a case of lack of motivation to do so. However, I don't think lack of motivation is the dev teams problem, just lack of insight and understanding maybe even inspiration.

[Alaik]

Why TH keeps coming back as an argument? Of course it is a golden ticket, of course it makes THF one of the most desired jobs. But its importance is decreasing over time. Abyssea decreased it somewhat and now voidwatch (the future of endgame) made it completely irrelevant.

Even if TH remained fully relevant, the fact is its mechanics would still be broken. The passive aspect of this trait is the reason we "THF main" don't like the concept of THF=TH. If TH was fun, if it was skill based, things would probably have been different. We, the players, want something that makes us keep playing. We don't want to get bored. TH never contributed with this in our history.

That and it's not a golden ticket. Unless you're the only THF around with max level TH, and if you don't have max level TH it's not. People generally bring one THF and only for TH, and once that quota is filled, no more THFs are getting in.

A golden ticket implies you can get into any lucrative event you want, no questions asked. If I was the biggest suck up to all my bosses, and there was some trite training that took 2 hours and gave me an additional 10,000 a year, and I knew straight up I was getting in because I wanted to and the higher ups loved me, their bias is a golden ticket. I want the training/raise, I get it. If a project me and 3 other guys are working on fails, I don't get the blame, I have a golden ticket.

A golden ticket is NOT "Hey Boss I want in on this training." "Oh, we already have one suck up with nice hands, boots and a letter opener, sorry." because it didn't get you in at all. In fact given how popular thief is (It's on the decline however in the last few censuses) it's highly likely max TH is already present and you will be told to swap to another job if you have another more liked one. WAR, BLM, MNK, NIN, DNC, BRD, COR, etc, etc.

New idea: Give PLD treasure hunter and remove it from us, a reason to bring a PLD, they can still tank and SE can put the no DPS buffs on a tank class instead of a DPS. *Sarcasm, before anyone goes all ragey because they can't detect sarcasm*

I get that people are saying if you're the one thief around with max TH you'll be allowed to come. But if you're the one DD or good support around that's smart and geared properly you are too, I'm sure. You're also allowed to do more than 2 abilities and duplicates of other jobs are very rarely considered pointless.

Having a second MNK is never considered worthless, they can engage as well or pop a second NM. Another BLM means faster procs or farming time while the other 2-3 kill a NM. No one ever complains about a second Bard. The only other role people were happy with just one of was a tank, and no one uses a traditional tank anymore either.

Hell, even back in 2005 when MNKs Chi Blasted Kirin it was more fun than this.

tl;dr people really need to think about th's relation to thf and their invites or lack thereof and compare it to any other situation they would use the term golden ticket. Unless your syntax is really weird, you'll get what I mean after you try it.

[Byrth]

Lets not talk about "max level of TH" like it matters, for two reasons:
1) Trait level TH has a dramatically higher effect than the TH proc system they introduced. The difference between a TH3+3 and TH3 THF is going to be almost undetectable unless you have a well-controlled test with a high sample size, and if you do I'd love to see it.
2) TH in gear just determines your starting point for the TH proc system. Though I have no formal testing, I feel confident that the odds of a TH level proc decrease as the level gets higher, so starting at TH level 5 vs. TH level 6 probably doesn't matter much on stuff with high HP that you're going to have plenty of opportunity to proc.

Also, even if it did matter it wouldn't be hard to get. My THF mule has TH3+3 for his level 90 THF and I have TH3+2 for my level 50 THF (stored on the Porter Moogle). Durinn is easy, TK is cheap, and Ass Armlets are soloable by quite a few jobs.