Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Selzak]

So uh...What is the intended use of "Steal" then?

[Nebo]

There is nothing wrong with THF and the role it is played. Get a grip of yourselves. If you don't like it, level another job.

Riiiiight. This is clearly the answer to the problem.

SA & TA vs. the new WAR JA - If I am reading it correctly, a JA to force the next melee hit to crit is nothing too special on WAR. The reason SA & TA is so powerful is because of their DEX / AGI mods, which I am guessing WAR won't get. This JA will only be useful outside abyssea as crit hit rate is usually capped in abyssea apart from some of the higher level nm's.

No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.

If you think THF is in the class of a heavy-DD, you are insanely wrong.

Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.

Before you start the /emorage, no I do not have a level 90 WAR, yes I do have a level 90 THF and I think it is stupid to think that THF will ever be more then hate control & TH.

I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.

I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.

THF has all the tools it needs in order to do it's job - and that is to get gear / items to drop.

See above.

[Nala]

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

just because you only care to TH whore doesn't mean that the rest of us want that to be our ONLY role in anything, i dont want to be the top DD in the game, hell i dont care if they even give us some kind of weak buff, but at this point any augment to our damage capabilities would be nice (DW1 aside... though that can hardly be called a buff)

and as the previous post states, war getting the ability to force crit outside abyssea without a positional restriction is just wrong, yeah yeah we get DEX mods, when the NM's in the middle of doing the normal whirlwind hate dance when are we suposed to sneak attack? oh wait lets hid... opps that doesnt work on NM's hmmm.... i got it control hate with accomplise!! nvm i have hate now.

i've been a thief since day one of my time playing this game, and ive waited, very patiently, for 4/7ish years ive been playing very patiently for any life signs on the matter on hand, this manifesto has crushed any hope i had that they may ever do anything for thief besides forcing the job into a TH only role. This is a game after all, i play to have fun, fun isn't running in and getting scolded for feeding tp, or trying to chase an NM's back for sneak attack, fun isn't tickling mobs outside abyssea.

For those of you who would argue go level another job, well what if im told to come to an event on thief what then? your argument fails, im now without choice on the matter.

As a closing statment its not just in the NA forums that DD augments are being requested, so if you want to jump in here and go LOLTHFDD LEVELAREALJOBNOOB, GTFO not only are you a minority in this matter but you're a damn retard.

[Seankp]

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

Aura Steal should not be required to make Steal useful. If the Dev Team is saying this, then it needs to be a natural Job Trait or even it's on Job Ability on a 1 minute timer to be useful like other forms of Dispel since none of them come even close to a 5 minute timer.

The same can and should be said about Shellra V/Protectra V, Dia III, Bio III, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind II, and Phalanx II, as well as all the SMN Group 2 merits.

None of these things should be required, and if the Dev team starts saying they are required to make something useful, then they need to make them available naturally to jobs and fix the merits completely.

[Zirael]

I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.



This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it would not be worth it for Treasure hunter procs.



You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without anything in its place. The fabled gold coin adjustment, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by failing to give any new monsters anything to mug, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long or shared recast timer. There is nothing about THF right now that is overpowered.



Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix it. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability shows a serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

^ Pretty much this. These days I use Steal only to dispel something but:
a) Orthrus puts on his Blaze spikes back 15 seconds later anyway (now when I think about it, how about making it so that monster is unable to regain the Aura Stolen effect for the next 5min? one can only dream...)
b) my memory fails here, but there are effects on new NMs that can not be dispelled with Aura Steal, so... where's that overpowerness of the ability you're talking about? (hmm, Pantokrator's shock spikes maybe? anyone got better fail examples?).
To me it looks like Aura Steal has no effect on Notorious Monsters either.

The last thing I'm confident to reliably use Steal for it's actual purpose is Mythril Beastcoins in Sea Serpent Grotto. Any higher level content after that is not worth the trouble. Completing a stack of Gold Beastcoins takes like how long; 2-3 hours if lucky? And it doesn't even buy you 12 Shihei toolbags. Who'd call that overpowered?

Despoiling Ladybug Wings, Goblin Chocolates, Murex Spicules... if I got free space to spare, they feed closest NPC for 30gil or so, if I can't afford having junk in inventory, the ability is never even used. Where's it's utility for anything other than amusement for a laugh? Anyone got any example of lv77 THF job ability contributing to the success of you or your party's battle?

No Subtle Blow (and probably lame Dual Wield) due to chance of upgrading TH effect. Personally I have never seen TH upgrade to more than 11, and that was with me and my friend THF+THF using hand-to-hand on Behemoth and SA/TA each other for 20-25min, at which point it has almost no HP left and we are few minutes away from raging it. Each time we reached TH10, few times 11. And guess what? Out of all the battles only 1 Savoury Shank. Doesn't bump from 8% droprate established in the other thread anyway from what I saw. I want my 99 Kindred Seals back.

Does SE really envision parties and alliances staggering battles in future endgame content for 20-30min+ so that TH goes up to 10-11? Tell me the last time you got that shining Voidwatch body armor thanks to THF efforts. As soon as healers cap their hate outside Abyssea, the battle ends. And please don't bring up the idea of PLD holding hate at that point. If I'm standing with mages to Collaborator them, it has no visible impact aside from me capping hate before them and everyone eating Thundaga III (or Thundaja, the new buzzword) anyway. It is not possible to SA/TA for TH and Collaborator mages in the same time either due to lame range of Collaborator. That is, if you can actually approach AoE spamming monster in content designed so that PLD does not look like a wasted party slot anymore.

As for that third ability, I hope it's something else than Side Attack (hit monster from the side to score critical hit! modificator: Charisma!).

While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

No disrespect Camate, but I saw example of THF adjustments in the latest version update (extended Collaborator/Accomplice range not being even noticable; DNC Climatic Flourish, DRK Last Resort in comparison etc.), so at the moment I'm under the impression THF is not being taken seriously. Right now, from what Devs said about THF's future, it looks very bleak to me (and many others, as you've probably seen).

[Nebo]

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

I'll tell you what. I would be perfectly happy (really happy actually) being a loot whore job if being a Treasure Hunter had anything at all to do with the skill of the THF. Or if vastly superior DD jobs with "!!" weakness triggers couldn't increase drop rates better than I could ever hope to.

When a naked, subjobless mule account with only 3 pieces of gear can do the exact same job that a near-decade career THF can....there is really something wrong.

I'm going to link to a post that I think sums up my feelings on this pretty well. Banalaty over on Allakhazam had this to say about THF:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...2&h=50&p=5#210

What Im gettin at is that all the other jobs are chosen based on what player PLAYS their niche the best. If you have 2 whms and you want 1, you pick the one who heals better/more efficiently. Everyone knows the difference between having the 4th string benchwarmer whm in your party instead of your LS A-Team whm. One always seems to have MP and everyone alive. The other is out of MP in 15 seconds and everyone is dead. Everyone knows the difference between a crappy war and a good war they know. When you go through your linkshell/friendlist to fill a job role you try to get the GOOD one 1st.

THe definition of a 'good' whm vs a 'bad' whm is a skill based distinction. One sucks, the other doesnt. There are good wars that rape face and bad ones that just cant ever seem to do any damage. There are plds that cant hold hate for crap and die to 'easy' mobs. There are good ones that can seem invincible. My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

Thf is the only job that when choosing one, the priority is made exclusivly by 3 pieces of gear. Hands, Weapon, Feet. It isnt who plays it well unlike, say a whm. If thf is forced into a nich (which every job is more or less) then the difference between a good and bad thf should be skill based (like every other job) and not the aquisition of 3 pieces of gear. (see my example a few posts up about being the 'best' thf in LS but not having TH6). The 'skill' of a thf is rated second to their TH level. The skill should be the most important thing just like every other job.

Nothing wrong with filling a specific niche. Nothing at all. The difference is TH niche has nothing to do with the player and everything to do with 3 pieces of gear, and that is the ONLY niche thf fills. Thus I would propose either: Make TH somehow skill-based (dont know how that would be implemented well) or give them a new niche (tons of way to implement). Id rather not compete in the flooded DD 'niche' so to speak.

There are still times that you dont need a super leet whm, and really any whm will do. This is true for thf as well. SOemtimes you JUST need TH and really any thf will do, but there is not really any time that you NEED a skilled thf, but you do need a skilled (tank, healer, support, DD etc). Something like expanding the hate manipulation or some other 'niche' would mean there ARE times that you would specifically seek out a 'skilled' thf over anyone with TH6. That is the distinction that I would like to see come to thf. A point where it matters at all what you do besides have TH6.

[Leonlionheart]

People look at anything other than the general section?

Not to mention that the dev's answer questions from places other than the general section?

what is this

[Karbuncle]

I'm awake, I'm awake D:!

First Off i'd like to deeply thank you Camate for coming here and speaking to us, and further thank you for speaking to the Dev team on our behalf. I'd like to ask 1 question!

Do you relay any Job Ability/Job Trait Suggestions to them? By their responses it feels like "We already have a plan for THF and aren't taking any advice", to the point i ask, Why bother with these forums?

Maybe I'm reading them wrong but it really feels like these job forums are a charade and any input we have is ignored. I'm not saying you don't deliver the messages, I'm saying it feels like you deliver them into a paper shredder so to speak. Am i the only one who read that and got the feeling they had THF planned out for 91-99 already and had no intention to change or deviate from the plan at all?

Anyway, I'm probably being paranoid, But moving on :X

On the topic of balance, The problem that has occurred many times in trying to "not make a job too powerful" has been inevitably that job will becoming realistically worthless with a slew of worthless abilities. I Admit TH is the one only thing keeping the job afloat, and its a wonderful thing, But as the Subtle Blow comment depicted, THF, and the Devs, Sacrifice far to much for TH...

Examples of jobs becoming worthless because of "Fear" Of overpowering them. - RDM, DRK(Souleater nerfs on everything), RNG... THF now.

After seeing where and why the Devs are concerned about timers. Perhaps i can make just a few more suggestions? Maybe address some of their concerns...

*Still like the idea of reducing Steal/Mug/Despoil Timers.
**Reduce Steal to 1min, Despoil to 2, and Mug to 3.
**Make them, as in some past games, deal Damage, and grant TP. This will give THFs a strong use for them even during Endgame events where you cannot steal from a NM (outside of a Merited job trait). The DMG doesn't have to be Lavish, but i suggest a DEX mod similar to jumps VIT mod, and it giving a wee bit more TP than a normal hit.

*On Stealing "Pricy" Items.
**I think i read one suggestion asking to be able to Steal/Despoil these "Rare items" From NMs. You cannot hide from NMs. (Well, Abyssea/Voidwatch, true endgame content). Further more mob can only be stolen from once as far as i know. We're asking for something like... If you're fighting Hahava, you have a small chance to steal a Hahava's Mail. This can only happen once per fight, and given the low rate of success steal has (like all over THF abilities), It would not be as broken as you fear.

*On Despoil, The problem with Despoil is it only works on Garbage mobs (I.E non-NMs), Most of which die in a matter of seconds, ergo this ability is functionally useless in a party. I think Despoil's "Effect" Should be 100% chance to proc, regardless of item stolen. Its not really that broken, We're level 90, Soon to be 99, Why is SE afraid to give THF a chance to Slow a mob every 5 minutes?
**Some way to target the effect from Despoil. Not specifically, but narrow it down. (I suggest a way to do this a while back in this thread, through head/body/legs targeting). RDM can chose to cast Gravity, BLM can chose to cast Choke. Why is THF Stuck like a bad AI? "Oh, you silenced the Crabs, thanks THF!" type of situation. Whats even worse is that not only is despoil 5 minute restricted and sharing a timer, its not even 100%, So like most of THF's abilities, you can use it and...... nothing happens, congrats go wait 5 minutes.

*Someone mentioned Stealing Temp items. This is a brilliant idea and would work nicely in Voidwatch and the like. But the Temp items should go to everyone too.

If the Dev team is absolutely dead-set on keeping us a master of Gimmicks, could the Gimmicks at least be useful... Its not like we're asking Despoil to inflict Death on a 30 second recast, Just that the timers are lowered to accommodate the 99 cap. When it comes to end-game events, 5 minutes is an excruciatingly long time.

One last thing, on Aura Steal being too powerful.

PUP has a Dispel Attachment. short timer
Every Mage can get dispel, its like 10 second recast.
BLU gets like 5 forms of dispel, one AoE, and 2 including a dispel that absorbs the buff, 56 second recast (Voracious Trunk), and Osmosis, drains HP AND Absorbs a buff. 90 second recast.

THF gets Aura Steal, 5 minute timer, does not always drain the buff, can miss. Has to be merited.

Tell me again, How exactly is balance an Issue when every single job can dispel, and BLU can basically Aura Steal multiple times in a much shorter period of time?

Someone on BG Said it better than i could

I understand that they have a vision of how it should be played, but how can they not realize that NOBODY DOES IT THAT WAY. Instead of trying to cram useless adjustments that are aligned with their own views of how the game should be played, why not make adjustments that are in line with how people actually DO play the game. .

[Nebo]

One last thing, on Aura Steal being too powerful.

PUP has a Dispel Attachment. short timer
Every Mage can get dispel, its like 10 second recast.
BLU gets like 3 dispels including a dispel that absorbs the buff, 56 second recast (Voracious Trunk)
BLU gets a second dispel that drains HP AND Absorbs a buff. 90 second recast (Osmosis)

THF gets Aura Steal, 5 minute timer, does not always drain the buff, can miss. Has to be merited.

Tell me again, How exactly is balance an Issue when every single job can dispel, and BLU can basically Aura Steal multiple times in a much shorter period of time?

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with Treasure Hunter like you used to and go sit in a corner.

Actually, scratch that. Switch to BRD or BLM please, because my level 90 THF mule with only 3 pieces of gear and no merits whatsoever can replace you...... <.< lolcareerTHF.

[Karbuncle]

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with TH like you used to and go sit in a corner.

That is pretty much exactly what i think the DEVs are thinking when they're presented with our complaints.