Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Smush]

I used Kinematics excel-Spreedsheet to put my thf setup to a Ukon war setup to see how big the gap is OUT of abyssea i used the stats of Bukhis because thos are known stats and im sure new HNM's will be very simuler. Also this is /war which is all we have atm outside to do good on HNM with stats like this and when i put it in spreedsheet it came up abit better then /nin i also used red curry.

THF:

Results Set 1

Target Bukhis SA Dmg 524
Level 101 SA Round Dmg 0
pDif Correction 0.55
Defense 560 TA Dmg 418
Dia II? 1 TA Round Dmg 0
Final Def 504
Evasion 430 Melee damage per round 101
Vit 110
Agi 100 Damage per second (total melee) 29.092

WS Dmg 0
SA WS Dmg 2097
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 TA WS Dmg 1814
Avg SATA Dly: 5
Norm Cycle Time 0.000
SAWS Cycle Time 2099.995
TAWS Cycle Time 2099.820
Leftover Cycle Time 0.000

Norm Cycle Dmg 0.000
SAWS Cycle Dmg 3028.212
TAWS Cycle Dmg 2745.131
Leftover Cycle Dmg 0.000

Total Dmg 5773.344

Overall DPS 96.222



WAR:

Target Defbuffed: Level Corr: Food:
Level 97 Red C Bun
Defense 560 504 0.35
Evasion 430 430
Agi 92
Vit 91

Crit merits: 5%
OAT rate: 0%
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 Hasso1



-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 2560 3122
TP/hit:
Round Dly 482 482 13.0
Magic Haste 0% 0%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 35% 35%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 313.30 313.30
Total Dly 1799 1799

DPS 85.384 104.132
Avg DPS: 98.883


Also this is with no outside buff which might changes things alot but most times im used to just having haste on most DD's but from what i can gather if a thf subs war on a high lvl nm thfs dps is good enough to melee and this is with DW2 so it will be better once we get that upgraded.

I still agree with Karbuncle and everyone that thinks we need a boost in both dmg and utility but i think with the ability to sub /war we are not that bad atm outside abyssea
and i didnt think we was that bad before when we just subbed nin

the link to the spreedsheets: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...91885208714538
its real easy to use so you guys should check it out.

Note my thf setup is pretty good also i have lvl 90twash.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/224267 ws set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/202340 tp set

[Byrth]

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.

[Laphine]

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.

That's kinda part of the problem too lol. Well, not problem, but the reason we are whining. Most of us here is playing thf for this long, and seeing no real change to our dd aspect year after year is just sad ;; (receiving mostly useless JAs also complements this)

[Nynja]

2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.

I'm pretty sure my thf isnt a mule...and their attempt at being able to melee to raise TH was a step in the right direction, but a bad one. When the KS99/kings was new, I fought a NQ behemoth in an attempt to raise TH as high as possible. Heres what happened after 30 minutes of a non-stop SA/TA battle, since SE stated that SA/TA attacks would have a higher chance of raising TH:

[02:23:17]Nynja is no longer quickened.
[02:23:19]The Behemoth misses Nynja.
[02:23:31]Nynja scores a critical hit!
[02:23:31]The Behemoth takes 563 points of damage.
[02:23:32]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 6. (oops forgot to hit /ra, should have started at 6 and raised to 7)
[02:27:02]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 105 points of damage.
[02:27:02]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 7.
[02:29:31]Nynja scores a critical hit!
[02:29:31]The Behemoth takes 591 points of damage.
[02:29:31]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 8.
[02:34:06]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 80 points of damage.
[02:34:06]The Behemoth misses Nynja.
[02:34:06]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 9.
[02:36:46]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 53 points of damage.
[02:36:46]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 10.
[02:48:24]Nynja defeats the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]Nynja gains 31 limit points.
[02:48:24]Nynja obtains 10,104 gil.
[02:48:24]yYou find a Thundercloud
on the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]yYou find a behemoth hide
on the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]yYou find a behemoth hide
on the Behemoth.

For 12 minutes I was fighting exclusively with SA/TA, and I couldnt get a TH+ proc, the only reason I stopped was because it ran out of HP.

I understand raising TH to levels like 20 and 30 might not make sense, but I did EVERYTHING I could to raise TH, and still failed to get the drop I really wanted. Which basically makes me think "just get the initial TH6, and hope for the best, because a rare drop is still going to go to the garbage players"

[Nebo]

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.

That is not really true.

Native Dual Wield, Critical Attack Bonus since the level cap. The dagger base damage buff was post assassin as well if I'm not mistaken.

Most of our Group one and two Merits are DD merits.

THF getting on Homam, Heca, salvage gear at 75 etc. Look at the stats on our AF3+2 gear, it is heavily DD centered. It gives a few buffs to some of our utility stuff, but for the most part, it is DD gear. And damn good DD gear at that.

To say that THF is not a DD is simply not correct. I do not think THF should be the "best" DD or a "Heavy DD" or whatever terms I've seen floating around this discussion.

But THF most certainly is a DD job.

[Byrth]

Yeah, they implemented it in a stupid way and gave you the equivalent of "TH3+10" instead of "TH13"

I don't know how much TH+1 is even worth. It's probably not 1% to the base rate, which would have a large effect on low drop rate items, because the "level system" would have made this incredibly obvious. Ridill drop rate +10% before applying TH levels would have increased its drop rate something like 6 times. If you let the TH/damage relationship determine the effective "trait level" then you get a system that isn't batshit retarded. WSing for more damage gets you TH4 or 5, and your drop rate goes up 30% instead of 10% while you kill the monster faster.

Also, we don't know how TH affects slots with multiple potential drops.


And I could be wrong, but I thought Assassin was added after group 2 merits. It was certainly after group 1 merits. Native Dual Wield will always be a joke if you can get better through sub. Your only group 2 merit that's a pure damage buff is Assassin's Charge, which is somewhat wasted given the high fTP of Dagger WSs.

Crit Attack Bonus is a DD buff, but everyone and their mom got hit with it. You guys actually ended up lower than most of the other jobs that get the trait because your AF3+2 didn't include any enhancements. DNC gets +5 from AF3 ammo. WAR gets +10 from AF3+2 feet. DRG gets +10 from AF3+2 legs.

In fact, your AF3+2 kind of points this out. SA/Collaborator/Accomplice enhancement. Augments Despoil/Conspirator. TH+1. It certainly has melee stats on it, but the special effects are 1-for-5 on being DD-related.

SE has a role in mind for you, but it's not as a "great" damage source. It's "a damage source that comes with TH and a few JAs."

[Insaniac]

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.

I feel like you are skimming. The theme permeating this entire thread (to put it into your words) is "We want to be sub suboptimal instead of sub sub sub optimal." Almost all of us have predicated, while making our suggestions, that we don't want to be on the same level as WAR or any "top tier DD". We accepted that role when we leveled the job but I promise you no one who mains THF leveled it to fill the roll it's filling now in post-abyssea content. I completely understand the balance gap you are talking about but I also understand, having mained THF for 7 years now, that this gap has widened and become unbalanced.

And, no, I meant *Us*. It's clear to me after having read every post in this thread and the THF subforum and speaking with multiple THFs in game that all most of us want is a little DD love.

[Yugl]

1) Enhances the Enfeeble of the target. COR can do this too with Quick shot, So its not far fetched to think THF could do something similar. Effects could stack for more bonus. It would give a THF meaning to the fight after the inflicted the mob with TH. Something that would enhance/help the party.

2) That Ability would also Stack with Angon, So it wouldn't outclass the DRG, because both effects would help greatly. It still would not create Zerg windows because most new mobs have immunity/build Immunity to stun and have very powerful AoEs that will wreck a group. SE has shown they can create mobs that aren't zerg Friendly (Damage absorbtion, Mobs like Rani (Charmga, Resistance building, Meteor every xxx%), Etc etc.

1. COR is a support class, but I don't see the ability as necessarily problematic anyways.
2. That's not necessarily true though. Remember that from an optimization standpoint, you want to limit the number of people you bring to the point where it's the difference between safe victory and a risk. By your logic, if the buff stacks with others, the class using the buff will not eclipse other classes. Consequently, if berserk+retaliation+WAR'sNewCritMove+Angon+LR+Blood Weapon+SE+Mighty Strikes stack with other buffs and do not overwrite other's debuffs, a melee having access to all of that wouldn't eclipse competing melee. I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

Well:
1) I think that's fine. That's pretty blatantly SE's opinion of what THF should be. SE thinks THF = TH + whining
2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.
3) I didn't claim it was, and I didn't claim THF needs one.

Yes, I know you didn't say that. I'm saying that's the general spirit of this thread. "Do not make our abilities depend on PT members", "Give us melee enhancements", and "Do not give us enmity abilities" seems to be the slogan of the thread. Hence, why I'm saying even your suggestion wouldn't satisfy the angry mob. However, I think we both agree that melee is not the general direction for THF.

4) In a certain sense that's true, but in a certain sense that's already true. CoP Dynamis monsters die so quickly that players should split up and take multiple monsters on the pull to avoid disengage/re-engage time wasted. As such, you should really be doing CoP Dynamis with nothing but a bunch of Thieves already. On things with big HP pools, I don't think it would take a THF very long to hit their "best tier" and people to just say, "Okay, trash it." The ranges I gave for that were pretty large. If a THF can take out 15% of an HNM's HP in a full-hits WS, it seems unlikely that they're going to be able to take out 20%. Or if something has 700 Defense, it seems unlikely THF could expect to better their best (on something with 700 Defense) by another 700 damage. Behemoth, for instance, would perhaps encourage the THF to lower their TP phase damage, but if they're aiming to do huge damage with their WSs then they only get a few shots anyway. It wouldn't slow down the fights that much, and I'd have to laugh at people doing Behemoth with a full alliance these days. Minor difference in playstyle. Two melee + mage vs. two melee + mage that are actually using SATA.

On one hand, if THF quickly hits a TH cap, I can see your idea working out. It would anger the people in this thread to the extent that they're told to go afk afterwards. On the other hand, if not, then it's better to maintain THFs because it's easier to maintain a stream of SA (Since in instances where THF has hate, he cannot SA, but if two THFs are on the mob, they can rotate SA at least). I also agree that THFOnry happens already to an extent (Behemoth was the primary example in my last post; THF + Healer (Optional tbh).

Also, I don't really understand why you guys keep saying that people wouldn't accommodate the THF if this system was implemented. If being a THF (or seeing horrible TH4 Thieves get LS invites back in the day) has taught you anything at all, it should be that people will do ANYTHING to slightly increase their drop rates. If this change was implemented, the game would become THF mechanism centered overnight.

I think the system already accommodates THF where relevan. The only reason people think otherwise is because of the introduction of proc!! system that undermines, but doesn't replace THF (Evident if you fight mobs with rare blue!! drops).

[Tokiro]

In my defense Enhanced Triple Attack and Dual wield fall in line with enhanced Damage :\

True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.

[Karbuncle]

True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.

I assure you, It was not our priority either :x

Given some time to think I could like THF as a support/DD/TH-whore so long as they did it right and updated a lot of our JAs.