Collaborator/Accomplice range past update

[Nebo]

THF still has the most evasion of any job and is a crazy evasion tank. With an evasion set on, barely anything ever touches me while putting shadows back up and I've soloed a bunch on THF/NIN in/outside abyssea. I've held Ironclads while SMNs unloaded blood pacts on it while doing ochain trials and they hit me maybe 1/20 times with evasion set on. I wouldn't say THF is so terrible as you make it out to be.

The thing here is, inside abyssea, this really amounts to nothing.

Practically any DD/Tank + WHM combo with half a brain = invincible. It is also not really a feat of tanking to hold a mob while SMN's spam hate free blood pacts.

I would be all for this reasoning if SE would give us something to use for tanking, but they do not want us tanking. Our core DD abilities were designed not to be very useful when tanking, conspirator doesn't work on the current hate target, etc.

Yes THF can evade and survive, but I don't think anyone would use it as a "tank" if not for TH.

[Arcon]

Evasion tank against ironclads? I thought aoe melee couldn't miss? Can't remember them missing anyway.

Actually yes, they can. My THF survives on Ironclad for quite a while, if the need arises.

And yes, THF has superior evasion, and yes, THF does very well inside Abyssea (better than most). Outside is the problem, as usual. I can't see THF be in any decent situation that doesn't require TH.

[Zaknafein]

Wait wait wait.. I'm confused? The Brady Games Guide says "at higher levels thf is one of the more powerful DD jobs" has something changed? Is this information no longer correct?

[Zirael]

Clearly they just want people to stop playing THF.

Or they really think THF's role in FFXI is good as is. I mean, Who doesn't love being a TH Whore, and only a TH whore? inside Abyssea sure, we can tank, but what job cant?. Fking WHM can tank in Abyssea.

inside Abyssea we can DD, but again see above, what job cant?

Point is back in the real world Thief is a terrible job and its only use is TH, and I'm tired of that stupid useless crutch being used as an excuse to keep us mediocre. Treasure hunter is nice, yay, But its not so nice THF needs to remain a useless sack of sh*t in every other department.

Give us something that makes it worth the time to melee? I dont want more Enmity control abilities, it won't help the job, Christ give them to PLD so at least they can be useless on a job that might get use of them. (Really, Would anyone complain if they renamed Coll/Acomp and gave it to PLD instead of THF, and instead gave us some great DD Abilities?)

I'm kinda fed up on all sides of the discussion. Idiots throwing around "You have TH" like its a viable excuse to make the job sucks, and SE being either too stupid, too blind, or just to scared to give THF Anything worthwhile to make it a more useful DD (while they pile on DNC's buffs).

I have to mirror Eeeks here, at this point they may as well just give DNC TH and delete THF as a job, We're completely useless outside of Treasure Hunter, and they actually added mobs that TH didn't effect at all (until just recently where TH 'help's your light level). If that pattern continues even TH will become worthless.


Ugh, Sorry for the Mini rant -.-. I'm sure no one wanted to read it. I don't like being upset , THF is my favorite job and I'm quite compassionate about it. I always considered (wrongly it seems) THF to be the best Critical hit job... what with SA, TA, and naturally high DEX... then MNK gets JA like Impetus, and WAR gets Blood Rage, it just seems like the strong get stronger and THF remains as mediocre as it has been since day one.

I understand your emotions Carby, but calling devs stupid doesn't help much. I never managed to convince anyone to my way of thinking by calling them idiot SE made these forums to engage us in conversation, and get engaged by us, but I doubt community reps would take any comments containing slur to the official dev team meeting. I've never been verbally insulted by anyone from SE, I'd say they deserve the same.
I've asked the question from the original post so we could sit down and ponder what has been done in the last version update and how adequate it is for Thief and other jobs.
On paper, extending range by 40-50% looks very good, but if you go out and try it out in a game scenario, you'll realise it still fails miserably. Well, let me give you such scenario: a seal party consisting of THF/NIN, WHM/SCH, BLM/BRD and BLU/NIN fighting Tuskertrap (you can probably skip BLU since it's a luxury to get all proc jobs in PUG party). THF is tanking and was just hit with Palsy Pollen. Let's assume THF was just about to Trick attack the BLU, so they both were affected. Now NM is after BLM/BRD, who used his Enmity Douse when trying to proc yellow !!, so it's not up back yet in the middle of the fight. Assume mages aren't total idiots and were staying outside of Soporific's range. Now, if you manage to adjust Collaborator/Accomplice to be useful in this fight, then I think that should be enough.
I'm not even talking about splitting timers or adjusting the amount of hate stolen so that people aren't back at hate cap before the timer is up again. Just making the ability useful for situations it was designed for.
I have nothing against buffing other jobs so they have 25% JA Haste for 3min every 5min, or can perform 5-step skillchain and finish it off with Charged Whisker, or 3-hit Zanshin builds or Haste Samba/Curing Waltz V/Box Step/Reverse Flourish/Climatic Flourish Rudra->Rudra or Focus/Penance/Dodge/Perfect Counter/Counterstance/Impetus combos, but I'm still riding the same SA/TA timers I did in Garlaige Citadel and not much more.
As Thief is now, it would've been an avesome job to play at lv75, but... the game has moved far from that, and... Thief kinda stayed behind. Well, at least now we can manipulate our TH better.
I must admit, I think Thief is well balanced job (and SE gave this job a lot of thought in 2005 or so), but now with most of the traits gimped to {Easy Prey} or at best {Decent challenge} level challenges.

[Zaknafein]

edit..spaces...please...help meeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Laphine]

...but I'm still riding the same SA/TA timers I did in Garlaige Citadel and not much more.
As Thief is now, it would've been an avesome job to play at lv75, but... the game has moved far from that, and... Thief kinda stayed behind. Well, at least now we can manipulate our TH better.

I think beyond being a better DD, this is exactly the point indeed. The only thing we have to do to "perform" is ride sa/ta timers. It's been this way since lv30. We never got any JA that could be classified as essential to our game play. We only have situational shit. And hell, now even sa/ta and TH are becoming situational due this rise on situations where they are respectivelly inviable and useless in some way. This really should not be happening.

So why can't we get something useful and necessary for our performance? I think we have the right to rant here, specially when many jobs have received JAs that fit very well on what was supposed to be a thief game play (around crit). Impetus, blood rage, climactic flourish...any of these would work on thf.

[Karbuncle]

I understand your emotions Carby, but calling devs stupid doesn't help much.

In my defense i named multiple reasons why they could be gimping THF!
1) being Stupid
2) Being scared
3) not thinking theres a problem (Which i guess might fall in line with 1)

Either way, I'm just tired of this job swimming in its own mediocrity with people hiding behind TH as a reason to keep us gimp. I understand trying to convince them to change our job is probably the best bet, but look at RDM, they've been asking for updates for years to where, its at the point RDM is really falling to the back of the line in terms of uses, and yet they still receive nothing.

THF is the same way, We have TH, but its not enough, its nowhere near enough... We need more.

---

More to the EVA guy a few pages back, yah, Inside Abyssea we're great tanks (i addressed this), but so is every job, I'd go as far as to say BLM/MNK could probably tank in Abyssea, its idiot proof. We're good DD inside abyssea too, again most jobs are.

Its outside content I'm worried about. for instance our EVA does little against voidwatch, because while we could evade normal hits, We cant do enough damage to hold hate at all, and beyond that a lot of new TP moves ignore shadows, and our only defense is our Eva, we're tissue outside of that.

While I'm happy with our state in Abyssea, its outside Abyssea on HNM-level content where I'm concerned. Because the ball is rolling away from abyssea, and THF is getting off 3 stops short of useful it seems. I just don't want our job once again condemned to "Hit the mob and go sit in a corner" level of gameplay that it was for years.

Giving us gimics to melee (upgrading TH) Isn't solving the problem. Giving THF a boost to their Damage is not going to break the job, Stop holding back and help us be useful in a group for more than making more items drop.

I hate to once again bring up other games, But in most other games the Rogue/Thief class is generally the best in spike damage and DPS, in FFXI its a Treasure Hunter-whore and for some unbeknownst reason, an "Enmity controller" (whos bright idea was that?).

and i know i know i could play another job, i have 13 of them, But THF is my favorite, and i can't help but want it to improve. I've given my suggestions in other threads on how to help THF, I could repost them... But maybe later. At least we have spoilers now.

[Zirael]

In my defense i named multiple reasons why they could be gimping THF!
1) being Stupid
2) Being scared
3) not thinking theres a problem (Which i guess might fall in line with 1)

Either way, I'm just tired of this job swimming in its own mediocrity with people hiding behind TH as a reason to keep us gimp. I understand trying to convince them to change our job is probably the best bet, but look at RDM, they've been asking for updates for years to where, its at the point RDM is really falling to the back of the line in terms of uses, and yet they still receive nothing.

THF is the same way, We have TH, but its not enough, its nowhere near enough... We need more.

---

More to the EVA guy a few pages back, yah, Inside Abyssea we're great tanks (i addressed this), but so is every job, I'd go as far as to say BLM/MNK could probably tank in Abyssea, its idiot proof. We're good DD inside abyssea too, again most jobs are.

Its outside content I'm worried about. for instance our EVA does little against voidwatch, because while we could evade normal hits, We cant do enough damage to hold hate at all, and beyond that a lot of new TP moves ignore shadows, and our only defense is our Eva, we're tissue outside of that.

While I'm happy with our state in Abyssea, its outside Abyssea on HNM-level content where I'm concerned. Because the ball is rolling away from abyssea, and THF is getting off 3 stops short of useful it seems. I just don't want our job once again condemned to "Hit the mob and go sit in a corner" level of gameplay that it was for years.

Giving us gimics to melee (upgrading TH) Isn't solving the problem. Giving THF a boost to their Damage is not going to break the job, Stop holding back and help us be useful in a group for more than making more items drop.

I hate to once again bring up other games, But in most other games the Rogue/Thief class is generally the best in spike damage and DPS, in FFXI its a Treasure Hunter-whore and for some unbeknownst reason, an "Enmity controller" (whos bright idea was that?).

and i know i know i could play another job, i have 13 of them, But THF is my favorite, and i can't help but want it to improve. I've given my suggestions in other threads on how to help THF, I could repost them... But maybe later. At least we have spoilers now.

As for Voidwatch I'd give up hope of tanking it on THF. If you look at most of those fights, they were designed for PLDs to feel needed and useful. AoE TP moves spam, AoE magic spam - aside from PLD and pets noone can come anywhere near Voidwatch NM. That event saves (in theory) the dignity of PLD and there are probably more battles like that coming. For outside content I really have no idea what THF could do aside of TH and Collaborator main healer. If monster casts any kind of AoE magic/TP, we have zero survivability and are pushed back to stand with mages. Ranged attack? The last useful ranged attack things for THF were acid bolts and maybe Culverin, if you managed to hit anything with it. I'm very curious what SE has planned for THF and RDM (maybe SCH too) at lv99.
As for Evasion, maybe Thief could finally go past 20% minimum monster accuracy. It's not much, but reaching 95% evasion rate if you get top gear for it would be fun. Also, all new outside HNMs having capped accuracy even against Thief is overkill.

[Laphine]

and for some unbeknownst reason, an "Enmity controller" (whos bright idea was that?)

Maybe i have an answer for that?!

The playerbase...

Since the playerbase already considered thf an "enimity controller". SE just came out and gave us those silly tools. Thinking maybe we would be happy. So yeah... >_>

Then again, the playerbase will never be satisfied with anything lol. Oh well.

[Karbuncle]

The playerbase...

Fu*k those guys then >:X!

I think THF was considered a "enmity controller" in the beginning due to Trick attack, and because they were useless early on and tanks sucked at tanking.

Then again what good is the Enmity "control" Trick attack if its doing 300 dmg? (i'm pulling that number out of my butt but i hope you see the point).

So on a bright side Boosting our DD capabilities does help our enmity controlling ability too! MORE REASONS :O!!!