The real problem with PLD

[Greatguardian]

said that to you great, apparently im not the only one who sees your negativity :3

If you're reading up, you should probably see how the rest of that exchange went brah.

[Andrien]

Contradicting where and which claims are false?

Monk is a better tank-with-support (taking less damage than any non-Ochain Pld) on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary, Red Mage is a better solo tank without support. There. Two jobs that can survive better than Paladin. Falsehoods where?

Anything that's a stronger DD than Paladin is a better hate-generator on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary. Why? Because all of those abilities you mentioned earlier only generate VE. Paladin has to deal damage, cure, or Flash if they want to build CE, which can't be done nearly as quickly as jobs that can generate more damage. Again, falsehoods where?

Or are you claiming now that tanking in pairs is not exponentially more efficient than solo tanking on hard NMs?

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

[Dawnn]

If you're reading up, you should probably see how the rest of that exchange went brah.

yeah i see exactly went

you contributing little to nothing
shotting down ideas
getting post counts +1 with failed and contradictory responses
then hiding behind those post counts to try to "defend" your point of view, which is a pretty sad defense imo

[Dawnn]

regardless im done with this thread, ive said what i needed to say, contributed my 2 cents with the idea of a brenner-effect provoke ability or spell or whatnot

honestly i dont care of SE implements it or not, just thinking OUTSIDE THE DAMN BOX FOR ONCE

[Greatguardian]

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

I'm not claiming Paladin is a support role, so I'm not sure where this conflict lies. Paladin is one of a few jobs that can play the main tank role well outside (and I see no reason to gimp the others, but moving on), but that doesn't mean they don't operate as part of a team. Co-tanking is not a matter of having one main and one support tank, but rather two main tanks who know how to work well together. Their synergy creates a significantly more potent tanking team than two individual tanks would.

As for RDM solo tanking with DD, I'd imagine there would be some form of support there if there were DDs around so it would become a moot point. How many Paladins fight things with 2 DDs feeding TP and no mages? Pre-Rdm-Tank nerf that would be an easy question to answer either way, though.

As for Enmity, I think you missed the inflection point I was talking about earlier. The stronger the target, the less effective DDs are at building Enmity, and the more relatively effective Paladin is at building it. Against EXP mobs? Paladin will never have hate. Against trash NMs? Rarely have hate. Against extremely strong NMs? Paladin will be one of the few jobs that can properly generate, control, and cap Enmity. I don't think Paladin really even needs to keep hate on weaker monsters. There are other jobs filling that niche to the brim right now. Paladin has its place, and it already does its job extremely well there. The only thing that brought Paladin out of the limelight was the fact that A) Everything in the Overworld pre-Abyssea was extremely easy by Khimaira #324, and B) Nothing in Abyssea was even remotely near hard enough to hit that inflection point where Paladin becomes most powerful.

Moving outside Abyssea now into harder content like Neo Dynamis and Voidwatch? Paladin excels, and doesn't really need much fixing.

[Andrien]

I understand. Well I'm waiting for more content to come out that will let my friends tell me to come pld. waiting for a long time.. Voidwatch, meh. Dynamis is to old.

[Yokoh]

You're still asuming people have something to start with or that there is enough easily attainable gear and atma. That is simply not the case. I have the deaths to prove it.

Well.. this this I almost fell to the floor. I thought it was a given that people Lv70+ knew the basic armor they should use/have/prepared for 75+... Pink gear/Perle set is purchasable from Cruor NPC, W.Turban is easy to get, 20 Gold imperial Coins, a pick-up-and-play party can easy get you +1 Emp seals for Head, Hands, Feet, Legs. The only problematic seal to get would be for the body, which involves multiple NM kills for pop items.

And if you dont really want to put a little time in to get, what i feel is pretty easy stuff (in relation to other armor sets from Salvage, Nyzle, Sky - which is again easy but a little more tricky than above mention and sea), is beyond me.

As for WHM gear, nothing stopping them from having a Light staff (10%) Noble/Aristocrat (10%/12%) Orison cape (3%) which by my reckoning, gets you 23-25% from purchasable gear... And if gil an issue, nothing stopping you from getting easy gil from selling the 3 armor sets you get from Cruor NPC (easy 110k+ per round)

I'm not having a go at you directly. I'm just trying to state that, getting armor in Abyssea is so much easier than before. With shout groups, you can obtain +1 Seals, Atma, Abysite's etc. There are lots of people in your position, but too many people unwilling to do something about it... It's a shame.

[Ravenmore]

The people that can't grasp co-tanking are the same ones that never got to fight anything harder then running kirin around his room. They have no idea how to fight hard NMs since they never got to tank HNMs either in KS99s at 75, ZNM T4s at 75JoL at 75.

Abyssea NMs can be looked at like old exp parties once people got the retarded idea of fighting IT++ out thier heads tanks were not needed. As soon as you got to endgame tanks were needed again. On old HNMs you didn't have everyone run up to the NM and start wacking away unless you were zerging and then you only had the pld there incase the zerg failed.

Abyssea is mid game at best though SE shot them selfs in the foot again saying af3+2 was going to be the top gear and everything that comes now will be side grades with some pieces being better. Only place pld/war was any real use was dyna to voke mobs off the sleepers and pullers, wasn't to hold hate just to get it back to the camp or keep them at camp.

[Andrien]

The people that can't grasp co-tanking are the same ones that never got to fight anything harder then running kirin around his room. They have no idea how to fight hard NMs since they never got to tank HNMs either in KS99s at 75, ZNM T4s at 75JoL at 75.

Abyssea NMs can be looked at like old exp parties once people got the retarded idea of fighting IT++ out thier heads tanks were not needed. As soon as you got to endgame tanks were needed again. On old HNMs you didn't have everyone run up to the NM and start wacking away unless you were zerging and then you only had the pld there incase the zerg failed.

Abyssea is mid game at best though SE shot them selfs in the foot again saying af3+2 was going to be the top gear and everything that comes now will be side grades with some pieces being better. Only place pld/war was any real use was dyna to voke mobs off the sleepers and pullers, wasn't to hold hate just to get it back to the camp or keep them at camp.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but do you mind posting something related to the thread topic? Instead of creating false accusations one and ranting in two paragraphs. I get what you're saying though but, who is you to say the ideal way to play? If you're good, and your team knows what they're doing you don't need a co-tank. I agree it'll make the job easy but its not necessary. You can tank most of those things you listed without a co-tank.

That is all I have to say in this entire thread. Feel free to disagree, but it wont change what I think about PLD.