The real problem with PLD

[Jile]

Just a quick thought after reading this thread.

If SE were to:
1) Double the amount of hate PLD could accumulate over other jobs
2) Double the rate at which all jobs other than PLD's hate degrades
3) Give PLD a new form of provoke they could use at initial time of pull which cap's their hate on each new mob

Then, PLD would tank more often.

All that said, sure PLD would then be able to "tank" but they still would not have the damage output of any half decent DD tho I don't know that most anyone would care, as long as the WHM wouldn't have to work harder....but the bottom line is the mob is going to die just as fast with/without the PLD there.....currently.

As new content is added, and new HNM style nm's are made, I could see this having more value in the post-abyssea world.

That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

>.> Editing the 1st post simply to add emphasis to the fact the original idea was flawed if the PLD had this much hate on them 100% of the time lol. >.<

[Greatguardian]

If SE were to do that, I would make sure never to bring a Paladin to anything aside from Voidwatch ever (well, I do that now for the most part, but I'd be even more careful).

Simply put, on weaker NMs/mobs, Paladin takes more damage than quite a few other jobs that deal significantly more damage. On stronger NMs/mobs, Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping and maintaining capped hate. So really, it wouldn't reap any tangible benefits, and would doubly serve to ostracize Paladin against weaker NMs/mobs.

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.

[Jile]

Yeah the idea of "always" tanking on PLD would be overkill... I'm just saying, if ppl were to seriously not want anyone else to tank but them in a group, the changes would have to be substantial.

That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

It would solve the PLD's desire to tank, on mobs that are of potential value, vs tanking full time which would be, as you mention, suicidal lol.

[Greatguardian]

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

[Duelle]

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.

If this is indeed the case, then all you can really do is have PLD join the "reactionary trait club" in some capacity and build from there. There was an old idea I remember for a trait that was basically counter but calculated entirely through the equipped shield.

[Unleashhell]

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

[Orson]

Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

[Unleashhell]

He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

[Andrien]

pld is best at being a shield for the party. nobody goes out looking for a pld to damage deal. that simple. The fact of the matter is they need changes to make them first choice to tank. pld cant play a supporting role in a party either in my opinion.

[Greatguardian]

My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

I only post in 4 job subforums and General Discussion. I choose to post in those 4 job forums because those 4 jobs happen to be my favorite, including Paladin. Yes, believe it or not, for all of Paladin's faults that I'm constantly pointing out, I'm a career Paladin and it's easily my favorite job in the world to gear up and play.

But that doesn't make it any good for the majority of content right now. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to use it in Abyssea. And that doesn't mean I'm going to delude myself into thinking that it's better than it is, or was better before Abyssea, or that the vast majority of changes that people propose here will do anything but hurt the Paladin job.

Do I want Paladin to be the only viable tank in the world? Hell no. That's not fun, and that's not fair. I love co-tanking with other people and jobs, especially back in 2009 when people were starting to really experiment with the potential of DD tanks. Tanking with Drks is fun. Tanking with Sams is fun. Tanking with Nins is fun. Reducing Tank-class gameplay to PLD onry by simply not allowing anyone else to reach their Enmity level? That's selfish and obscene.

I'm negative to so many posts here because people just don't seem to get it. They don't seem to bother reading, or understanding, anything that's been posted before they come in to sing the same song 9,000th verse. Reading is just that bloody hard, apparently. It doesn't matter how many times the reality of the Paladin job is explained to people, as long as people are under the impression that "What the job should be in Final Fantasies or in my limited conceptual understanding of white knights" actually matters to this game, then absolutely nothing can be solved. It's not about concepts. It's not about what Paladin "should" be. It's about what Paladin is, and what can be done to improve on its strengths.

People here are so caught up about being unpopular in Abyssea. Who the hell cares if your job doesn't work well in one event? Monk was sure as hell laughed at at 3-Kings back in the day, despite consistently being one of the strongest DDs in the game. White Mage was laughed at as an EXP healer for years. Ninja was absolutely terrible and unloved once they dinged 74. How popular a job is depends entirely on context. There is absolutely no need to make every job viable/awesome for everything. That's just dumb and defeats the entire purpose of the Job system.

And then you take a look at Paladin and wonder what changed between their hey-day and now, and you know what that was? Context. Absolutely nothing else. We weren't nerfed. The rules simply changed. Paladin is terrible in Abyssea, and will always be terrible in Abyssea until the day the servers shut down and that is okay. Outside Abyssea? In real content that's made for our level? Paladin is damn good. Paladin's Empyrean shield has given the job a key to God mode. They've buffed Aegis and Burtgang to give similar god-tier buffs to the Paladins adventurous enough to acquire them. Paladin has always been able to generate and cap Enmity, and now it's even easier. There is nothing wrong with Voidwatch-and-beyond Paladin.

But you know what Paladin does not need? Provoke. Provoke is useless. To anyone who knows a darn thing about Enmity mechanics, Provoke has always been useless. Paladin does not need Enmity-generating abilities. Paladin can max Enmity extremely quickly. So why do people complain about not being able to get hate on Paladin? Probably because they're just not very good at it. Or because they're sitting on Pld/War and wondering why they can neither get hate nor survive when they get it. I hope people realize that they lose Enmity every single time they get hit. I hope they realize that they are losing significantly more Enmity than Provoke will ever net them in a million years. If they don't, it's their loss. But it's not a fault with Paladin.

You know what else Paladin doesn't need? An Enmity cap raise or Enmity adjustments. Paladin can cap hate just fine. They are extremely adept at it. Moreover, they're extremely adept at keeping their Enmity capped once it's there. So what if everyone and their mom can keep their hate capped in Abyssea? It's not so easy outside, especially when, and I'll let the class think about this one for a moment, especially when DDs are taking damage. Taking damage lowers Enmity, by a lot.

People can play their jobs however they want, it doesn't affect me. But when it comes time to look at potential adjustments and improvements to the Paladin job and people honestly think that they need a Provoke? I'm going to say otherwise, because that does affect me. A lot of the problems people have with their Paladin are with the player, not the job. The former can be fixed without damaging the job and wasting development time. But even if people don't want to bother fixing it for themselves, I'd still take extreme offense to wasting a perfectly good opportunity to improve on Paladin just because someone is too lazy or stubborn to admit that they could be doing things a better way.