The real problem with PLD

[Andrien]

Paladin isn't the best at staying alive solo =/. I've solo tanked plenty, on trash NMs where it's feasible to do. But if we're talking about trash NMs, plenty of jobs can stay alive and keep hate better than Paladin.

I agreed with you before but, you've lost all creditability with this paragraph alone. Nobody has to play the way you think is right.

I've solo tanked HNM like Sarameya, Cerberus, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat, Tinnin and the list goes on. That's low man party before the cap was increased to 80. So whose you to say the most ideal way to play? I'm sure your way works fine but, know there is sometimes more than one way to solving a given problem. You know about Trick Attack right?

You're fixed on co-op play and that is fine, but pld should be first choice on the list when it comes to tanking. Not second, not temporally.

[Greatguardian]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

Paladin is not the best job in the game at staying alive solo-tanking with support, or even staying alive solo. Paladin is not the best job in the game at generating hate on NMs weaker than X/Y/Z.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I'm not fixed on anything. But I do know that co-op tanking is exponentially more effective and feasible than solo tanking on anything that is difficult. Paladin does not need the ability to tank weak monsters better. Every other job in the game can already do that, better than Pld can, and no Enmity "fix" is going to do anything but force people to never bring Paladins to weak NMs to avoid the frustration, and provide no benefit to any Paladin tanking a difficult monster with a co-tank.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

[Andrien]

@ Greatguardian

Contradicting yourself much? I've already made my point clear, and I've agreed with you on a few things. However...The majority of your claims is false.

[Dawnn]

i agree with andrien completely :x

[Greatguardian]

Contradicting where and which claims are false?

Monk is a better tank-with-support (taking less damage than any non-Ochain Pld) on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary, Red Mage is a better solo tank without support. There. Two jobs that can survive better than Paladin. Falsehoods where?

Anything that's a stronger DD than Paladin is a better hate-generator on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary. Why? Because all of those abilities you mentioned earlier only generate VE. Paladin has to deal damage, cure, or Flash if they want to build CE, which can't be done nearly as quickly as jobs that can generate more damage. Again, falsehoods where?

Or are you claiming now that tanking in pairs is not exponentially more efficient than solo tanking on hard NMs?

[Andrien]

Contradicting where and which claims are false?

Monk is a better tank-with-support (taking less damage than any non-Ochain Pld) on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary, Red Mage is a better solo tank without support. There. Two jobs that can survive better than Paladin. Falsehoods where?

Anything that's a stronger DD than Paladin is a better hate-generator on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary. Why? Because all of those abilities you mentioned earlier only generate VE. Paladin has to deal damage, cure, or Flash if they want to build CE, which can't be done nearly as quickly as jobs that can generate more damage. Again, falsehoods where?

Or are you claiming now that tanking in pairs is not exponentially more efficient than solo tanking on hard NMs?

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

[Greatguardian]

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

I'm not claiming Paladin is a support role, so I'm not sure where this conflict lies. Paladin is one of a few jobs that can play the main tank role well outside (and I see no reason to gimp the others, but moving on), but that doesn't mean they don't operate as part of a team. Co-tanking is not a matter of having one main and one support tank, but rather two main tanks who know how to work well together. Their synergy creates a significantly more potent tanking team than two individual tanks would.

As for RDM solo tanking with DD, I'd imagine there would be some form of support there if there were DDs around so it would become a moot point. How many Paladins fight things with 2 DDs feeding TP and no mages? Pre-Rdm-Tank nerf that would be an easy question to answer either way, though.

As for Enmity, I think you missed the inflection point I was talking about earlier. The stronger the target, the less effective DDs are at building Enmity, and the more relatively effective Paladin is at building it. Against EXP mobs? Paladin will never have hate. Against trash NMs? Rarely have hate. Against extremely strong NMs? Paladin will be one of the few jobs that can properly generate, control, and cap Enmity. I don't think Paladin really even needs to keep hate on weaker monsters. There are other jobs filling that niche to the brim right now. Paladin has its place, and it already does its job extremely well there. The only thing that brought Paladin out of the limelight was the fact that A) Everything in the Overworld pre-Abyssea was extremely easy by Khimaira #324, and B) Nothing in Abyssea was even remotely near hard enough to hit that inflection point where Paladin becomes most powerful.

Moving outside Abyssea now into harder content like Neo Dynamis and Voidwatch? Paladin excels, and doesn't really need much fixing.

[Dawnn]

This is what i see, yeah the paladin generates whatever the hell types of hate your talking about
but it doesnt do any good inside abyssea when the monk spams V smite every 20~ seconds

what i see is alot of you SHOOTING down ideas rather than actually contributing to the thread and thinking of tools to use

obviously SE has problems of thinking for themselves, the past few updates to "fix" paladin have shown us so

so rather than shooting down ideas how bout contributing some broski?

[cidbahamut]

This is what i see, yeah the paladin generates whatever the hell types of hate your talking about

Leave this discussion right now and go educate yourself: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

You'll have a better chance of being taken seriously if you possess a thorough understanding of the mechanics involved in tanking.

[Dawnn]

i know CE and VE just dont feel like creating a lengthy post -.-