The real problem with PLD

[Andrien]

Any experienced, Endgame Paladin who knows how to work as part of a team would never, ever use an ability that forced a monster to focus solely on one person.

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..

I'm sorry, but it's extremely obvious that there's very little experience speaking behind some of these things. Endgame tanking outside Abyssea is team-based. You have co-tanks. You lose hate on purpose a lot. Forcing a mob to lock onto you for some amount of time is basically asking to get your ass kicked and make your entire team worthless.

No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.

[Zagen]

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..

How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

[Greatguardian]

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..




No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.

Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

[Andrien]

How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.

Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

[Zagen]

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.

The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

[Greatguardian]

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.



Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

[Andrien]

The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I never was lol. No DMG is better than taking some. But, blink tank can be subjective with equipment like Creed Collar, and Creed Cuisses +2. In fact the entire creed +2 set Occasionally absorbs damage taken. Set proc believed to be somewhere around 5% for each part. I might be wrong though.

[Greatguardian]

Taking damage demolishes your CE, the most important kind of Enmity for a dedicated tank, and creates a significantly greater strain on your support staff. There's a reason it's a good idea for DDs and Mages to occasionally take a strategic punch.

[Andrien]

So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

I'm taking you never solo tanked before. I agree there is nothing wrong with teamwork at all, anyone can tank if they can keep hate and survive. In my opinion pld is best at doing just that. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Greatguardian]

Paladin isn't the best at staying alive solo =/. I've solo tanked plenty, on trash NMs where it's feasible to do. But if we're talking about trash NMs, plenty of jobs can stay alive and keep hate better than Paladin.

The harder any given NM is, the more of an advantage PLD gets in the Enmity game because everyone else is able to do less and less damage for Enmity while taking more and more. By the same token, when you hit an NM that's too hard for a DD to tank with damage-Enmity, Paladin (and no one else, really) should not be tanking on their own.

Can I do it? Sure. I've tanked plenty of hard stuff solo when I had to. That doesn't mean it was anywhere near ideal, or easy, or practical, and I wouldn't want to do it again in the future. People figured out years ago that the ideal way to tank any difficult mob was in pairs. Any more would become too complicated to manage (unless the NM could insta-kill people fairly often or something, and even then that was 2 at a time + rotation), while solo tanking was just way too dangerous and lead to significantly more deaths. Hell, with anything that is legitimately difficult to fight, solo tanking may as well be impossible, that's how much you're gaining by having 2 tanks that work together well.

Any ability that takes away the ability to work properly with your co-tank is useless at best, harmful or even wipe-causing at worst. Besides, Provoke is fairly useless at it is and still requires /War which in and of itself is pretty bad.