Reopened: How can Empyrean be better than Relics?

[Ravenmore]

You would be amazed at how being next 2nd or 3rd in line for sought after gear will cause people to over look shady acts. Sometimes just starting over in a new shell that could turn out to be the same with no points or time put in will do the same thing. If you have had left for for reason's like that a couple times you be less inclined to do it again. Not everyone has the gear or jobs to get into the good LSes and hve to make do with what they can get into.

[Byrth]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

[Insaniac]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

Then, like I said, those people were dumb. I would be ashamed of myself if I let someone exploit me like that. The math behind a sponsor shell is very very simple. It shouldn't take anyone with a 3rd grade education more than 2 seconds to realize the dynamic of the shell they joined. I do agree with you that the relic/dynamis system was an unfortunate system that required a group of people to put another person ahead of themselves to some extent but SE forced that system on us. This doesn't mean that every person involved in getting another person their relic was screwed/abused/swindled. People had a choice in how they wanted to take part in that system.

Anyway we've started a whole different conversation now. None of this really has anything to do with what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Byrth]

It's okay to exploit dumb people. Got it!

[Sparthos]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

If you joined a sponsor-oriented LS, you knew you weren't getting money because the currency was going towards a relic, how hard was that to figure out? If gil was your primary reason for joining a dynamis LS, there were groups that ran with that intention in mind.

Even if your LS wasn't sponsor oriented and sold/split currency based on attendance, the roadblock of low drop rates still existed. The leaders could have slanted things towards more city runs than CoP/Icelands but in the end they couldn't force your item to drop. Some groups did nothing but Icelands and still had issues putting Duelist Chapeau's on members heads.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime.

Id argue Dynamis was one of the most fair events regarding playtime. It was ~4hours, twice a week at the same time every week. Unlike Kings where shifting windows could it make impossible for some to attend, Dynamis was as simple as showing up.

This of course assumes your Dynamis shell was independent of an HNMLS. If the two were linked then yes, it could get unfair if you could use LS DKP within the Dynamis run.

Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

You're making assumptions here that the LS didn't front the glass cost, replenishing itself using currency won on the run while the sponsor simply took that currency as a loss. Every shell went about entry fees differently and most of the smarter groups paid glass costs from currency/drops and simply had individuals split cost on CoP due to the lack of currency in those zones.

Why would someone with low playtime be chosen as the sponsor in the first place? The ideal sponsor was an individual who played often enough to not only attend their runs but also make progress on their own time. The worst sponsors were individuals who simply relied completely on the group to make progress.

This is purely conjecture on my behalf however. There were groups who completely funded every ounce of an individuals currency from stage 1-5.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.

And at the end of day, if you saw bullshit going down (or got your drops) you were free to leave the system.

Yes, there is no denying that some groups ran some exceptionally dishonest linkshells full of guilt-trips, currency funneling and slanted runs but we can't simply forget the other groups who ran tight ships with fair rules. Fair being what you perceive as balanced rules.

Ive been apart of linkshells that were both.

[Ravenmore]

Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

[Sparthos]

Honestly, most of XI is paddling through a sea of idiots to find an island refuge where some people have the slightest idea of what they are doing.

[Byrth]

Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

Pretty much this.

Dynamis allowed high playtime players to exploit low playtime players because low playtime players devoted 8 of their 16 hours a week to Dynamis instead of farming gil so they could potentially pay for the Dynamis glass. They also wasted a good portion of their remaining 8 hours a week doing things like re-buffering and farming so they can pay for Echo drops/reraise items. It's not that they couldn't show up for events, it's that the event consumed enough of their time that sponsorship was an unreasonable goal. If you aren't sponsoring in a sponsor shell, then you're not profiting.

Do low playtime players not deserve to profit from the time they spend doing an event? Sponsorship was a roadblock to this no matter how you cut it.

Also, I'm speaking more from the experiences of my friends that have bitched to me while in such shells than from personal experience above. I saw where the money was going about two runs after joining my first "sponsor" Dynamis shell and quit. They were terrible players and it was unprofitable. A few months later, I was a part of one of the first sell/split Dynamis groups on my server. It tanked when the leader quit, so I joined a big shell that did everything (including Dynamis), and then a few years later I helped lead another sell/split Dynamis group.

I distributed an average of ~350k/city run and ~100k/outlands and negative/nothing from CoP (all of the profits). The shell wasn't exactly a super-exclusive elite-fest, everything was "comment four items," and after your first run everyone was equal. We had a pretty regular and small group, so there were no real lotting issues and we were (at most) only gunning for a few of each item. Dynamis went from being a 3 hour chore to a fun way for people to make gil. The AF you wanted didn't drop? Doesn't matter, we each made 300k.

[Insaniac]

It's okay to exploit dumb people. Got it!

Never said that at all. However, if you were dumb enough to stay in a shell like that for more than 1 run it's as much your fault that you are being abused as it is the person making up the crappy rules.

Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

Was it really that hard? People did it all the time. Joined starter shells to get their city flags and bounced as soon as they met the requirements to be in the shell they really wanted to be in. Also, you are implying that all shout shells were formed simply for the purpose of using people. That's just dumb. Every shell shouted for people when they needed them and there were enough of them to find one that suited you. Playing less or being new to dynamis wouldn't have affected anyone's ability to do this.

[Ravenmore]

Never said that at all. However, if you were dumb enough to stay in a shell like that for more than 1 run it's as much your fault that you are being abused as it is the person making up the crappy rules.



Was it really that hard? People did it all the time. Joined starter shells to get their city flags and bounced as soon as they met the requirements to be in the shell they really wanted to be in. Also, you are implying that all shout shells were formed simply for the purpose of using people. That's just dumb. Every shell shouted for people when they needed them and there were enough of them to find one that suited you. Playing less or being new to dynamis wouldn't have affected anyone's ability to do this.

Every shell shouted for people when they needed bodies really. The good shell had lines to get into so you were still stuck with the trash. Not just they were goodenough to get windy win with out agrroing the death house but good as in farming xaca and killing DL. Those shells that sold and spilt coins not just give relics away to suck up leaders.