Reopened: How can Empyrean be better than Relics?

[Leonlionheart]

Buying the gil, sure, breaking the rules = wrong.

Anything beyond that is subjective

Nit picking, I don't think you'll find many ripped off LS that thing what happened to them was 'right.'

[Insaniac]

Nit picking, I don't think you'll find many ripped off LS that thing what happened to them was 'right.'

Let's find a single person who was actually in a shell that was ripped off before we start putting words in their mouth. Shells crumble when a leader is crooked. If people stay in a shell they are obviously getting something out of it or they are just stupid. Most of these "abuse" shells never even got off the ground let alone ran long enough to get someone a relic. When people join a sponsor shell they understand what they are getting into.

[Frost]

Read through the thread, and the only thing I have to add at this time:

To those that say you can just buy a relic, you're right you can. However as someone already pointed out, you're still grinding to get cash to do so. Boasting you make 1.5m/week and putting that to the math was done. But there's also one facet to that argument that wasn't touched: Availability. You may see "Thirty Bazaars packed to the teeth with coins". But in reality it's more like 10 or so with maybe 3-5 of each coin if you're lucky, and usually way overpriced compared to "common market value". Availability has always been the obstacle when you're doing a relic without a shell.

And at least on my server, "Sell Abuse" was pretty much unheard of. I've said it in other threads on this topic, that is actually pretty rare. You only heard about those incidents because they are tantamount to murder in the FFXI world. You don't read about all the babies being born in the world, only the horrific deaths. Not saying it never happens, but it's more rare than you'd think.

[Ravenmore]

You can make 1.5 mil a day if you really tried to farm. Forget singles, one 100 piece a day is easy to find. Again grinding gil or old school of getting a whole LS to farm it for you since as a sponsor your personal amount of work was far less then the rest of the shell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You underestimate how stupid this playerbase is.

[Ravenmore]

You would be amazed at how being next 2nd or 3rd in line for sought after gear will cause people to over look shady acts. Sometimes just starting over in a new shell that could turn out to be the same with no points or time put in will do the same thing. If you have had left for for reason's like that a couple times you be less inclined to do it again. Not everyone has the gear or jobs to get into the good LSes and hve to make do with what they can get into.

[Byrth]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

[Insaniac]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

Then, like I said, those people were dumb. I would be ashamed of myself if I let someone exploit me like that. The math behind a sponsor shell is very very simple. It shouldn't take anyone with a 3rd grade education more than 2 seconds to realize the dynamic of the shell they joined. I do agree with you that the relic/dynamis system was an unfortunate system that required a group of people to put another person ahead of themselves to some extent but SE forced that system on us. This doesn't mean that every person involved in getting another person their relic was screwed/abused/swindled. People had a choice in how they wanted to take part in that system.

Anyway we've started a whole different conversation now. None of this really has anything to do with what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Sparthos]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

If you joined a sponsor-oriented LS, you knew you weren't getting money because the currency was going towards a relic, how hard was that to figure out? If gil was your primary reason for joining a dynamis LS, there were groups that ran with that intention in mind.

Even if your LS wasn't sponsor oriented and sold/split currency based on attendance, the roadblock of low drop rates still existed. The leaders could have slanted things towards more city runs than CoP/Icelands but in the end they couldn't force your item to drop. Some groups did nothing but Icelands and still had issues putting Duelist Chapeau's on members heads.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime.

Id argue Dynamis was one of the most fair events regarding playtime. It was ~4hours, twice a week at the same time every week. Unlike Kings where shifting windows could it make impossible for some to attend, Dynamis was as simple as showing up.

This of course assumes your Dynamis shell was independent of an HNMLS. If the two were linked then yes, it could get unfair if you could use LS DKP within the Dynamis run.

Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

You're making assumptions here that the LS didn't front the glass cost, replenishing itself using currency won on the run while the sponsor simply took that currency as a loss. Every shell went about entry fees differently and most of the smarter groups paid glass costs from currency/drops and simply had individuals split cost on CoP due to the lack of currency in those zones.

Why would someone with low playtime be chosen as the sponsor in the first place? The ideal sponsor was an individual who played often enough to not only attend their runs but also make progress on their own time. The worst sponsors were individuals who simply relied completely on the group to make progress.

This is purely conjecture on my behalf however. There were groups who completely funded every ounce of an individuals currency from stage 1-5.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.

And at the end of day, if you saw bullshit going down (or got your drops) you were free to leave the system.

Yes, there is no denying that some groups ran some exceptionally dishonest linkshells full of guilt-trips, currency funneling and slanted runs but we can't simply forget the other groups who ran tight ships with fair rules. Fair being what you perceive as balanced rules.

Ive been apart of linkshells that were both.

[Byrth]

It's okay to exploit dumb people. Got it!