SCH adjustments & Additions

[Fetus]

Look like you're the one going on a rant like a kid right now, just take what you can from criticism (if there is any in the post). Not everyone going to see things how you see it. If you what to try to more people to, you're going to at least be willing to explain things with more depth than you have.

I never assumed that anyone is going to see anything like I do. I'm am honestly surprised that nobody has suggested introducing the Crimson Arts before me, though. For being such an integral part of the Scholar story, it's like everyone just forgot about it. I'm not sure how much more in depth you want me to be. I've been quite thorough in most of my replies and ideas.

You mention about wanting the enhances Regen on AF3 to be swap to Adloquium. Who is to say that will not be in the merit system to come to enhance that, like WHM merits for regen are now? Granted I'm just guess, but it would make sense of what the base was left at a 1TP tic without boosting it on any AF3 either.

Sure, enhancing the Adloquium effect might be a merit. It might not be. I'm just pointing out that WHM, obviously being the superior user of Regen, has at least two pieces of equipment that enhance Regen. RDM, obviously being the superior user of Refresh, has one piece of equipment that enhances the effect and a load of equipment that enhances the duration. SCH, being the obvious and only user of Adloquium, should have a piece of equipment that enhances it. It just seems a little cop-out to put a Regen-enhancing effect on the bonnet over a Adloquium-enhancing effect.

Guess the "turn SCH in to Geomancer" was at me, if that's what got from that post you don't read very well. Taking an aspect or and idea from a job and mod it or apply it differently, is not just copying and pasting. If you know anything about past FF games, SCH had no direct correlation with the use of weather. Geomancer does though, but maybe that went under your radar.

You know what's funny? People who are overly defensive. I said one thing and you feel the need to slip in as many insults as you can in retaliation. If you think I'm attacking you because you made a comment about Geomancer, get over yourself. I don't give a crap about Geomancer or anything that it may or may not have in common with Scholar. I am tired, after years of hearing it, about people wanting to bring stupid jobs into the game like Geomancer, Time Mage or whatever other crap you people want to drag out of the closet and put into FFXI. It's not the same game as it's predecessors. Stop trying to turn it into one.

About the balance you speak of the ability you proposed, "not able to use addendum" is not balancing anything. If "Crimson Arts" is being it's own seperate art, it would be natural you cannot use either.

It balances it perfectly. Example: If you could use Addendum: Black under the effect of Crimson Arts, you would be able to use a augmented Ebullience for +10% more damage on Tier V nukes... Thunder V, for example. That would be ridiculous considering that Scholar can already reach ~ +68% more damage on any elemental nuke, as is. The balance is to remove the ability to access either Addendum and allow the use of "Fusion" magic instead of Tier V nukes to allow for alternative play-style.

Second, how is it balance if your in your words, "Crimson Arts bestows the same 10% MP Cost Reduction/Casting Time/Recasting Time benefits and penalties to respective spells as Dark/Light Arts. In this case, dark and divine magic would be penalized." SCH has no divine magic, and only aspir and drain natively. Even when you factor in sub, that's not much of a draw back. It could use some more thought about it's balance and practicality. One could just switch Light/Dart Arts to with better results than a lot of what you propose for Crimson Arts do the number of charges needed in it's application. Also for the charges it would consume, the boost to most the abilities are too small to make it practical. For 50%MP stratagems, using HP is different... It seems you're selling Crimson Arts on being able to "Hastega", Warp-ga, "spike-ga" and RR-ga(II) only.

Gimping a Scholars Divine Magic skill is about as notable as having it optimized through Light Arts. In either case, it's completely worthless to even talk about it. Something had to go, though. Dark Magic is slightly different. Drain and Aspir are essential spells to a lot of Scholars and the trade off might not be worth it to them. The whole point is to offer more choices. If you don't like X choice, then don't make it. Stick with what you feel most comfortable with. If you're wanting to use augmented stratagems with Fusion Magic, but still have some capacity to cure without penalty, then Crimson Arts wins out.

And you do play the game right? What's the difference between a Haubergeon and a Haubergeon +1? 1 STR, 1 DEX, 2 Accuracy and 2 Attack. That's it. The price of this meager upgrade is a sizable amount of Gil. In fact, what is the difference between any piece of NQ and HQ equipment? The differences are always small and usually only arguably worth it. That's how everything is in this game. It's about small gains adding up. It always has been. The spells you mentioned are selling points. You're not allured by at least a few of them? Being able to use Fusion spells with augmented Ebullience and Immanence stratagems? The capacity to use certain light and dark magic without being penalized? Other augmented stratagems? I guess those aren't also selling points.

Perhaps making "Crimson Arts" into a 10min ability with a 5min duration would be a better approach. Having it boost stratagems while Light/Dark Arts are active; but it eats percentage of your HP per tic (1-2% just a suggestion), then also take an additoin percentage per stratagem activation.

This is the first real piece of constructive input you've had to offer. Thanks, but I have better ideas. Delete the SCH forum, scratch all of the ideas found in this thread, and replace all of the Scholar JA with these two new abilities:

I wish I had more MAB and grellow triggers: Turns your Scholar into a Black Mage of equalvalent level.

Or...

I wish I could use Curaga, Cure V and Cure VI: Turns your Scholar into a White Mage of equalvalent level.

There ya' go. Every problem fixed.

[Silvers]

I never assumed that anyone is going to see anything like I do. I'm am honestly surprised that nobody has suggested introducing the Crimson Arts before me, though. For being such an integral part of the Scholar story, it's like everyone just forgot about it. I'm not sure how much more in depth you want me to be. I've been quite thorough in most of my replies and ideas.

Most isn't all, and with quite a bite of what you have said people are not going to to see your train of thought.

Sure, enhancing the Adloquium effect might be a merit. It might not be. I'm just pointing out that WHM, obviously being the superior user of Regen, has at least two pieces of equipment that enhance Regen. RDM, obviously being the superior user of Refresh, has one piece of equipment that enhances the effect and a load of equipment that enhances the duration. SCH, being the obvious and only user of Adloquium, should have a piece of equipment that enhances it. It just seems a little cop-out to put a Regen-enhancing effect on the bonnet over a Adloquium-enhancing effect.

SE most likely has their plan for it, there is still a lot to be added. Until we know more about what's to come, it's too early to ask for chances in exsisting gear. Why not ask for another piece entirely then to do the job (which is a good possibility). I just try to look pass the here and now.

You know what's funny? People who are overly defensive. I said one thing and you feel the need to slip in as many insults as you can in retaliation. If you think I'm attacking you because you made a comment about Geomancer, get over yourself. I don't give a crap about Geomancer or anything that it may or may not have in common with Scholar. I am tired, after years of hearing it, about people wanting to bring stupid jobs into the game like Geomancer, Time Mage or whatever other crap you people want to drag out of the closet and put into FFXI. It's not the same game as it's predecessors. Stop trying to turn it into one.

Overly deffensive is what you are being now, and it seem you're the one stuck on yourself. In your other post you call someone immature, and then be that way yourself. About insulting you, only talked on what I saw once. You can put yourself in your "funny" people category. I don't care if you was trying to attack me or not, and didn't see it that way. Even if you was, such the empty words about an my idea can't be taken seriously. You missed the point entirely; taking an aspect or and idea from a job (this game or another), and mod it or apply it differently. You know, so it fits more into this game and into this class. It's pretty much the foundation of SCH, part WHM and BLM applied differently.

It balances it perfectly. Example: If you could use Addendum: Black under the effect of Crimson Arts, you would be able to use a augmented Ebullience for +10% more damage on Tier V nukes... Thunder V, for example. That would be ridiculous considering that Scholar can already reach ~ +68% more damage on any elemental nuke, as is. The balance is to remove the ability to access either Addendum and allow the use of "Fusion" magic instead of Tier V nukes to allow for alternative play-style.

Gimping a Scholars Divine Magic skill is about as notable as having it optimized through Light Arts. In either case, it's completely worthless to even talk about it. Something had to go, though. Dark Magic is slightly different. Drain and Aspir are essential spells to a lot of Scholars and the trade off might not be worth it to them. The whole point is to offer more choices. If you don't like X choice, then don't make it. Stick with what you feel most comfortable with. If you're wanting to use augmented stratagems with Fusion Magic, but still have some capacity to cure without penalty, then Crimson Arts wins out.

And you do play the game right? What's the difference between a Haubergeon and a Haubergeon +1? 1 STR, 1 DEX, 2 Accuracy and 2 Attack. That's it. The price of this meager upgrade is a sizable amount of Gil. In fact, what is the difference between any piece of NQ and HQ equipment? The differences are always small and usually only arguably worth it. That's how everything is in this game. It's about small gains adding up. It always has been. The spells you mentioned are selling points. You're not allured by at least a few of them? Being able to use Fusion spells with augmented Ebullience and Immanence stratagems? The capacity to use certain light and dark magic without being penalized? Other augmented stratagems? I guess those aren't also selling points.

Again, where is your balance in using almost your whole spell list on sch without a draw back? Divine magic as you put it is "useless", then what are we giving up for balance ... just dark magic. Your defensive was, "something had to go", there are still other skills that could be penalized like enfeebling. Where is your pracaticality for when adding another 10% to dmg (using 2 stratagems for 30% boost without af3) when using the 2nd charge on another spell would be more benefically (be it for Ebullience or Immanence). As you say, using on tier 5 "is ridiculous". How less "ridiculous" does it make it for anything else, like the tier 5 replacement fusion spells? It's the same premise. How does the you brought up armor fit into this picture? I'll go with the connection you was trying to make. Yes there are differences in NQ and HQ pieces their difference between them doesn't always make the HQ a good choice to warrant paying their cost. Kind of like how I described stratagems above. The concept of fusion magic or double helixes (which has been around for years) will probably see the light of day without Crimson Arts. What warrants the implementation when it does not hold to the balance or particality of the game in it's use how you describe it.

Thanks, but I have better ideas.

Well lets hear them, because your Crimson Arts needs more structure and depth. At this point, it's shallow, flawed, and unbalance. On a side note; for someone who dislikes readapting ideas to the job, you sure like to do so to from others. Anyway that's not being evaluated. Not saying there isn't some potential in it, but Crimson Arts is not what you say it is in it's current structure. Can take that any you want to.

[hideka]

You're starting to sound like a butthurt kid, sorry. If someone makes an error, I point it out. Don't take it personally. Crimson Arts makes us sound like a RDM? How the hell does Light Arts or Dark Arts make us sound like then? Derp. Again, you're hung up on comparing how similiar jobs are by their available spells, which is dumb. Who cares about the amount of spells BLM, WHM or RDM has that we can't access.

Some of you guys are demanding some radical changes that just aren't going to happen. They're neat, but impractical or completely unbalanced. Turn SCH into Black Mage without penalty! Turn SCH into White Mage without penalty! Turn SCH into Geomancer! No, wait, we want SCH to be it's own job although we all know it's just a hybrid job like RDM! Some of you seem to forget that the game is about marginal improvements and lots of balance. You can't add something like Crimson Arts without balancing it. Not allowing the SCH to access either Addendum: White or Addendum: Black is a perfect balance. If you can't understand that, then I dunno' what to tell you.

Have you ever used Accession+En-spells with the maximum amount of Enhancing Magic possible? I mean with equipment, merits and capped skill. Try it some time. You can do it on SCH or RDM. The amount of extra damage is fantastic. When SCH can finally access Haste via /RDM, it'll be even better. When SCH can finally access Hastega via an augmented stratagem through Crimson Arts, it'll be even better. Oh, wait, you wouldn't want that. It would make us too much like SMN.

no offense, but if someone makes a miniscule mistake and you point it out in an attempt to bash them, then that makes you petty good sir.

Scholar from the get go was modeled into being a class that could essentially be two diffrent jobs at the same time, but only utilize one of them at a time to the fullest. what your suggesting is blurring the line and trying to make a job that is essentially RED MAGE. Scholar has NEVER been a perfect Omni freaking mage fusion. NEVER. we have always been a bastardized combination of white mage and blackmage with just a splash of unique spells, but NEVER able to access both types at full power at the same time.

by restricting addenendum white, you restrict Na spells. what spells does redmage not have access to? NA SPELLS.
by restricting addenendum black, you restrict Tier 5 magic (all other adenda reliant spells are provided with RDM sub)
What spells does Redmage not have access to? Tier 5 Magic.

Redmage total fast cast : 50% @ cap
Scholar total Fast cast: 48%.

Redmage and scholar are already FAR too similar to one another. bringing them any closer together (namingly allowing sch to use all spells at full power) will simply make scholar into a freaking more magically orientated redmage.

yes ive used aoe enspells. inside of abyssea their damage dosent even count for 1/10th (on 6 DD's) of a GOOD warriors damage. outside however they are very good.

also if you look at WHY haste cant be paired with ascension: name one spell that scholar does not naturally know that can be paired with ascension: Awnser, you cant because it dosent exist. now if they added haste to scholars spell list, then YES we would beable to ascension haste. theres also a good reason why we CANT ascension haste: MP. if you could ascension haste, in the term of one dynamis, a scholar could spend less then 1/20th of the MP then a WHM, who isnt subbing SCH, on casting haste. that would make SCH the only job who should EVER cast haste (or at least a whm or rdm subbing sch). i wont lie tho, id love to see all casters get access to hastega.

i think you need to get a whole lot less hostile with your posting. people didnt like your idea, so i suggest getting over it. this is an adult world, where temper-tantrums, name calling, and all around belligerence arent tolerated. we are having an adult conversation and debate over a certian topic. by resorting to name calling or failing to provide a proper defense to your idea, your just making less and less people want to support your topic. I suggest taking a step back, calming down, and approaching your idea from anothers perspective and attempting to see what they see wrong with your idea. once you do that, hit the drawing board and mallet out a more refined and balanced idea that will please people. this is how progress is made, not by petty name calling or brash insults.

i think your idea has merit, but in my oppinion it is being put into the wrong direction. i love the fact that you want to incorporate the jobs lore more into the job, however its just not logical to have it done for several reasons: Schultz has the blood seed grimorie, its a tool created by sacrificing anothers allies and feeding it their blood and souls. if you havent noticed FFXI DOES NOT SUPPORT PLAYERS BEING EVIL! even darkknights the most evil mofos on the planet, they are still heroes who use the darkness to do good on the planet. i just cant see SE allowing us to use an item that was made from the souls of our allies.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Don't mind your list, though I'd say no to the Sublimation adjustment.

[Silvers]

I think we may be looking at this wrong in a way for some improvements to SCH. I'd love for more distinction from RDM, BLM, and WHM. At the same time, we have to remember there will not be but so much because of the sub job system. SE has failed to outline SCH more with it's own unique spells. SCH's first of set unique spells was storms and klimaform. Great additions and pretty much our bread and butter (the entrée being arts and stratagems). Then there was Helixes, another good addition and people love the concept of them (more so before MV was nerfed in such a lazy and discriminating manner, it could have been handled differently). I shocked there wasn't more spells added to SCH that would be helixes, in that they require the presence of weather. Maybe we should look at Geomancer in Past FF's to design/redsign some things for SCH. As much as people would like to see Geomancer be added, to be honest it wouldn't fix so well in FF11 to most mobs in a zone hold a resistance for the type of climate/terrain they are placed (unless the job was completely reimagined, but that's another story). Here one thing off the top of my head that could be added. I'll post more later, this headache is killing me.

New job trait

Geomancy - grants additional potency to spells the same as weather (outside of what weather does 10% of the time with the obis or 100% with them).

Let me know what level you think would be best for it, if it sould be one bold number for the effect, or should it be gradually upscaled.

@Hideka very creative ideas, but some of the names could be simpler. I'm aware they fit the theme, just saying

I have a feeling SE has something in mind about spells with 2 elements with the next tier of helix spells, playing on the meaning of a "Double Helix"...

[TheBlackBard]

Cure V would be AWESOME TO HAVE! And I'd think at some point rdm, sch have to have something yo get HP up, as HP keeps increasing and monsters keep getting nastier and nastier. Cure IV even with rapture just doesnt cut it anymore. I feel like a smn trying to main heal sometimes...UGH and can carbuncle get some more healing magic too.

But Rapture + CureV + Acc = Ultimacurega! And I think the -ga cures stop at III Or IV right. That would give sch the definite upper hand in those cases. So I can see why SE is kinda holding back.

I'd like to see Flash and holy too. There is NO freaking reason why whm and paladin are the only to get it and we have Divine skill. Blah blah blah rdm use to have flash. But if we cant proc green with all ele, at least give us a shot with some of the divine stuff.

[hideka]

lol, the names are all just latin words for old DnD type spells XD

[Fetus]

It may be flawed, but you're going to have to explain how it's shallow. Unbalanced? Still hung up on that? It's like you're reading every thing I type and instantly forgetting it.

If you have real ideas for real adjustments for Crimson Arts, why don't you suggest some instead?

Aside from the meh one you mentioned a couple posts back, you've done little to suggest anything constructive or interesting.

Anyway, you can take this all as a personal attack like everybody else does in these forums or you can just realize that it's all constructive criticism and nothing personal.

[hideka]

wow, i totally missed you calling geomancer a stupid job. youve quite obviously NEVER played ff tactics with a good geomancer. geomancers are freaking AWESOME. i demand you take back that statement!

[Fetus]

wow, i totally missed you calling geomancer a stupid job. youve quite obviously NEVER played ff tactics with a good geomancer. geomancers are freaking AWESOME. i demand you take back that statement!

lol. Fine, I take it back. I honestly forgot about FF Tactics, although it's the only other FF game I've ever played. Don't throw rocks at me.

A lot of the lore of FFXI cannot be literally implemented into the game. We all know the Blood-seed Grimoire consumes the blood of other magi, but because of game functionality, we can't do something like that. As much as I would want to drag certain people into Ruhotz Silvermines and sacrifice them, I simply can't. The only other way I see to implementing it would be to have it consume your own HP instead, which seems infinitely more feasible.

The idea behind augmenting stratagems was because Ulbrecht had enhanced stratagems due to his dabbling into the Blood-seed Grimoire. The only difference between my suggestions for augmenting versus those of Ulbrecht is that his boosted Alacrity made all of his spells insta-cast, Manifestation made all of his magic AoE and his Ebullience was far superior to what we have now. Unfortunately for Ulbrecht, it ended up costing him his life. To implement this in a playable fashion, my idea was to allow for similiar effects at the cost of your own HP. It's simliar, yet not the same. Does everyone see the connection yet or do I have to make a bullet-point list? I think I'm being quite clear.

no offense, but if someone makes a miniscule mistake and you point it out in an attempt to bash them, then that makes you petty good sir.

I pointed it out because :45 is not :48. If you think I was "bashing" you over 3 seconds, you're making me out to be more of a sociopath than I really am. It's nothing personal, really. I'm anal about details, even completely miniscule ones.

by restricting addenendum white, you restrict Na spells. what spells does redmage not have access to? NA SPELLS.
by restricting addenendum black, you restrict Tier 5 magic (all other adenda reliant spells are provided with RDM sub)
What spells does Redmage not have access to? Tier 5 Magic.

Redmage total fast cast : 50% @ cap
Scholar total Fast cast: 48%.

Thank you for pointing that out. I did completely overlook the -na spell issue and the Fast Cast thing. Although, I'm not sure if you're complaining about the Fast Cast or not.

theres also a good reason why we CANT ascension haste: MP. if you could ascension haste, in the term of one dynamis, a scholar could spend less then 1/20th of the MP then a WHM, who isnt subbing SCH, on casting haste. that would make SCH the only job who should EVER cast haste (or at least a whm or rdm subbing sch). i wont lie tho, id love to see all casters get access to hastega.

I don't see how this is an issue at all. SCH is already renowned for MP conservation, it's nothing new that they spend far less MP to use the same goodies as other mages. Nobody complains about it, though, or sees it as a negative do they?Everybody wants Hastega. SCH is a perfect candidate to learn it under certain protocol. As is, the only job who should really Haste anybody is RDM. They're perfectly optimized to do it with all that increased enhancing magic duration+Composure.

i think you need to get a whole lot less hostile with your posting. people didnt like your idea, so i suggest getting over it. this is an adult world, where temper-tantrums, name calling, and all around belligerence arent tolerated. we are having an adult conversation and debate over a certian topic. by resorting to name calling or failing to provide a proper defense to your idea, your just making less and less people want to support your topic. I suggest taking a step back, calming down, and approaching your idea from anothers perspective and attempting to see what they see wrong with your idea. once you do that, hit the drawing board and mallet out a more refined and balanced idea that will please people. this is how progress is made, not by petty name calling or brash insults.

So far, I've only really seen two people complain. Considering the utter lack of traffic to the forums, in general, I wouldn't consider two people as the majority. Not to start anything, but the real world tolerates name-calling, intolerance and belligerence about as much as it tolerates politeness, tolerance and understanding. But that's not really a discussion for this forum.

The thing is, I have provided plenty of "defense" for my idea. I jotted down some ideas, typed them up, posted them in this thread and tried to make them as concise and organized as possible. Because some people read the first few words, they jump to some pretty baseless conclusions or assumptions. When somebody like Silvers comes along and says "ur idea is dumb n op n shallow", I don't feel any obligation to "defend" my idea to him because he's made no points about how it is dumb, shallow or over-powered. With a few tweaks, Crimson Arts could be a fantastic asset to Scholar, but I don't see anybody except me trying to figure out how to improve it. Just some people making unconnected or trite commentary.

If you think the idea has merit, try to improve it. I've done my best to try to include other sensible ideas into my own, but it just seems like everyone would rather take stabs at it without trying to improve it... and if that's how things are gonna' work around this forum, there's no point in anybody posting anything because nothing constructive will be designed.

To Silvers:

Shallow: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shallow

Balance: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance

I am inviting you to point out exactly what is shallow and unbalanced (about Crimson Arts); And I cordially invite you to improve it.

So far, you've commented about giving it a shorter duration without reason. The HP-consuming effect has already been covered by the augmented stratagems themselves. In terms of balance, the only things you've mentioned is the Divine Magic Skill/Dark Magic Skill issue and that the bonuses aren't large enough.

In my opinion, Light Arts shouldn't even optimize Divine Magic Skill. Especially since SCH learns no native divine-magic spells. It makes little sense that it does. They should probably just remove that aspect of Light Arts from the game, IMO.

A quick fix for Crimson Arts would be to just have it optimize all aspects of magic skills then.