Summoner ~ Updating Avatars & Elemental Spirits. Blood pacts, wards, and spell list.

[Razushu]

You are as biased as one can be. Let me explain why.

For a SMN/WHM healer and support role, spirits are the best. Instead of soaking your MP into pacts, you'll just send a small amount of perpetuation to the spirits while they either help you cure or deal some additional damage. Meanwhile you have more MP to spend on healing and -na-ing the alliance.

So any Summoner who plays a support healing role, should be thrilled at spirit updates. Unless they are biased at their usual playstyle and haven't put any testing into spirits over the years.

I've tested this style on ix.drk fights, and apart from spirits being idiots constantly casting DoT spells, it worked better than any other thing a SMN could do in the fight. Which of course just translates to "It was better to use 75 pacts since spirits are idiots", if you want to be biased on what works and what doesn't.

In short, spirits WOULD be more useful than avatars for certain support roles, and it is those exact roles you enjoy to play. Even so you diss spirit fixes, even though it is the best thing that could happen to you, out of ignorance.

For SMN/WHM in a Healer /support capacity Carbuncle is the best. Unless you think that a pet costing 1/2 of what the light spirit does that provides ~22HP per tick Regen and a reliable ~400Hp AoE curaga is somehow inferior. Even spamming Healing Ruby II Carby is cheaper than the light spirit.

Carby will deal more Damage and heal more HP over time than a Light spirit all the while costing just as little, and being generally more reliable than a spirit, the bolded proves this. Of course it's better to use an avatar in any situation over spirits, that's how the job was designed. I've used spirits before on things and, it always became quickly apparent Avatars>Spirits.

My point is there's no need for "Spirit fixes", we already have stornger, more reliable, more versatile pets that could still use a boost. You're the biased one here, You say a small amount of perpetuation (19MP per minute is not insignifigant), sure they cost slightly less than the celestials when you factor in BPs, but they can't come close to them in any other regard.

For whatever reason you have decided to campaign on behalf of spirits, but honestly what would it get us if they were "fixed". SE could buff them to a point where they're closer to the avatars for nuking and would see more use, but in all seriousness it would leave us exxactly where we are now(obviously aside from people who like to play with spirits, your toys would be a little better), the job would remain as it was in both power and player perspective.

Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.

Making Spirits better buffers does nothing, because Avatars are already better buffers.

Making Spirits better nukers does nothing, because Avatars are already better nukers.

Making Spirits better Healers does nothing, because Avatars are already better Healers.

Making Spirits better DD/tanks does nothing, because Avatars are already better DD/tanks.

It makes far more sense to buff the more powerful pet, since the job needs a power boost anyway, thats's the only reason I'm against Spirits getting an update.

[Covenant]

@ razusho I'm sure your the "bee's-knees" as a summoner, your various post from technical standing "seems" well informed, but your stance on spirits is total crap. Worst off, it shows how unimaginative your thinking is. You based all you reasoning on the "old" spirit stance...that they're useless anything other than an mp boost and maybe a quick save.

First off, without any special NM elemental, let just say SE would fix the spirits spell list to include lvls 75~99 elemental spells. Spirits would now have access to just about everything a black Mage and scholar has at appropriate levels...to include AM, AM II, helix spells, storm spells, tier V's, and ~JA spells(yes some of these are extreme wishful thinking). Your seriously saying that a merited bloodpact spell would out damage a -JA, AM II, or tier V spell?

Second, this was true in the past and still true now...spirits being NPC(non player control) characters DON'T require resting to regain MP. An extreme fictional behavior nonstop AM Nuking, spirit would still not require resting. Adding several fast cast tiers to all spirits at whatever level, would make spirits that much impressive than an avatars magical nukes.

Thirdly, on melee/def capabilities and why to buff these. If SE were to keep the spirits casting/behavior the same, I could see a faster/melee type elemental as a major improvement. Saying that avatars are better at tanking is at best 50% of the truth. Both avatar and Spirits have "stout servant" job trait. What makes avatar good at tanking is usually a higher such as evasion(Garuda), def(Titan), or other blood pact ability(carby/regen,cure, diabolos/phalanx, magic shroud). However, a spirit has a natural resistance to physical damage which isn't as pronounced as it should be. A lvl 75 spirit does not have the same defensive capability as a lvl 75 elemental mob.

And lastly, and I think even most importantly spirits have uniformity of behavior. The cycles which player hate because it removes direct control is also what makes spirits superior than avatar. Avatar have multiple bloodpact/wards to manage and remember. Adding additional effects to avatar would only continue to add to the confusion. Not to mention that the multitude of Bloodpacts and wards all share the same timers only lessen their effectiveness. No matter what spirit types they all are equal in the sense of the behaviors.

As a thought experiment only, summoner that could captialize on the ninja "elemental wheel" strategy with AM use, could push nuking power that much more higher.

What this wall of text adds up to, as far as the future of spirit utilization is unlimited potential in my book. The only thing adding a new bloodpact to an avatar is the cessation of "old Bloodpacts". Why use predator claw I, when predator claw II is better? Why use single strike bloodpact when mutlistrikes are more effect.
Adding to avatars, while needed at the lower levels, are NOT required at the higher lvls. Other than adding more AoE moves at higher lvls, I don't see any improvements needed. Spirits automatically eliminate lower tier nukes in favor for maxed tier spell use. I'm also sure that summoner/BLM could eliminate a lot of the debuffs, if they casted on mobs first eliminating the need for spirits to do it.

[Malamasala]

Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.

As covenant says, you diss spirits out of "this is how bad they are" rather than thinking about "this is how good they could be".

Let me list a few utilities of spirits "who are fixed"

- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

- Spirit fast nukes: You can stay at safer range 20+, because you do not need to be in BP-range.

- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

And the above are just examples. You could do much more. I think it is a huge difference to your "I want harder hitting avatar melee" wishlist, which doesn't allow us to do anything different, just the same things better.

[Razushu]

@ Razushu I'm sure your the "bee's-knees" as a summoner, your various post from technical standing "seems" well informed, but your stance on spirits is total crap. Worst off, it shows how unimaginative your thinking is. You based all you reasoning on the "old" spirit stance...that they're useless anything other than an mp boost and maybe a quick save.

Why thank you.

My stance on spirits is they are inferior to Avatars(Which is true), and if SE is coming at us with a buff to pets it would better serve us if it was to our Avatars(which is also true). I'm very imaginative actually, I just choose not to waste it on spirits, and tend to think of things to improve the main focus of the job.

First off, without any special NM elemental, let just say SE would fix the spirits spell list to include lvls 75~99 elemental spells. Spirits would now have access to just about everything a black Mage and scholar has at appropriate levels...to include AM, AM II, helix spells, storm spells, tier V's, and ~JA spells(yes some of these are extreme wishful thinking). Your seriously saying that a merited bloodpact spell would out damage a -JA, AM II, or tier V spell?

The spell list hasn't been "fixed", but then neither have our avatars recieved new rages yet. Personally I'm asking for new Rages. Avatars did better damage at 75, so they're gonna be better at 99. They already get AM btw, and yes I'm seriously saying a merited BP will out damage any spell from the inferior pet.

Second, this was true in the past and still true now...spirits being NPC(non player control) characters DON'T require resting to regain MP. An extreme fictional behavior nonstop AM Nuking, spirit would still not require resting. Adding several fast cast tiers to all spirits at whatever level, would make spirits that much impressive than an avatars magical nukes.

Adding fast cast and unlimited MP to spirits would be amazing.... assuming I want Burn spam at some point. Why are you trying to think of ways to buff spirits to rival Avatars? Avatars are better than spirits but still need work, why not ask for the work to be finished on Avatars first?

Thirdly, on melee/def capabilities and why to buff these. If SE were to keep the spirits casting/behavior the same, I could see a faster/melee type elemental as a major improvement. Saying that avatars are better at tanking is at best 50% of the truth. Both avatar and Spirits have "stout servant" job trait. What makes avatar good at tanking is usually a higher such as evasion(Garuda), def(Titan), or other blood pact ability(carby/regen,cure, diabolos/phalanx, magic shroud). However, a spirit has a natural resistance to physical damage which isn't as pronounced as it should be. A lvl 75 spirit does not have the same defensive capability as a lvl 75 elemental mob.

Saying Avatars are better at tanking is 100% the truth sure they get the same traits, but Avatars are just sturdier thatn spirits. No player commanded monster has near the power of it's wild counter part, ask a BST.

And lastly, and I think even most importantly spirits have uniformity of behavior. The cycles which player hate because it removes direct control is also what makes spirits superior than avatar. Avatar have multiple bloodpact/wards to manage and remember. Adding additional effects to avatar would only continue to add to the confusion. Not to mention that the multitude of Bloodpacts and wards all share the same timers only lessen their effectiveness. No matter what spirit types they all are equal in the sense of the behaviors.

As a thought experiment only, summoner that could captialize on the ninja "elemental wheel" strategy with AM use, could push nuking power that much more higher.

Uniformity is great, except that behaviour is cr*p. Direct control is fair superior to AI, A nuke on command is FAR better than maybe a nuke(but possibly another debuff). Avatars versatility is what makes them superior, and the selection of wards and rages is what makes them versatile. It's very easy to remember all the Pacts an Avatar has, and what situation to use them in. Spirits casting all share the same timer too, except you might get what you want or not. Couldn't a Summoner use the elemental wheel with merit pacts too?

What this wall of text adds up to, as far as the future of spirit utilization is unlimited potential in my book. The only thing adding a new bloodpact to an avatar is the cessation of "old Bloodpacts". Why use predator claw I, when predator claw II is better? Why use single strike bloodpact when mutlistrikes are more effect.
Adding to avatars, while needed at the lower levels, are NOT required at the higher lvls. Other than adding more AoE moves at higher lvls, I don't see any improvements needed. Spirits automatically eliminate lower tier nukes in favor for maxed tier spell use. I'm also sure that summoner/BLM could eliminate a lot of the debuffs, if they casted on mobs first eliminating the need for spirits to do it.

As far as the future of Avatar utilization goes it's actually unlimited. Of course adding new Blood Pacts, will replace old ones, that's how the game work. Unlock Heavenly Strike? so long Blizzard IV. The fact we're using DD tools from ~20 levels ago is enough to warrant a buff( the upcoming ability may negate this), that and the fact avatars have the same damage as naked BLM melee is a huge problem(and it completely overshadows spirit "problems" as a job failing). Why would you go /BLM just to boost damage from you spirits? they party loses your support abilities, you lose survivability, and for what to push spirit damage closer to Avatar damage?

[Razushu]

As covenant says, you diss spirits out of "this is how bad they are" rather than thinking about "this is how good they could be".

Let me list a few utilities of spirits "who are fixed"

- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

- Spirit fast nukes: You can stay at safer range 20+, because you do not need to be in BP-range.

- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

And the above are just examples. You could do much more. I think it is a huge difference to your "I want harder hitting avatar melee" wishlist, which doesn't allow us to do anything different, just the same things better.

I diss them in the same way a SAM would diss his sword skill.

All those "fixed" spirits roles are already filled by Avatars.


- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

Avatars do this in bigger slower chunks(soon to be less slow).


- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

I've yet to pull enough hate triggering BPs for an avatar to not pull hate on it's inital strike.


- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

Carbuncle provides ~22HP per tick, ~400HP(before TP) AoE cure, and even a Protect/shell that stacks with Protect/Shell.
That is acutally the one use for a spirit in a fight, but why is a SMN the only healer in yopur alliance, a niche use for a situation that never arises is useless.


- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

Carbuncle, Leviathan and Garuda already do this.


My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled. The only situation where spirits would allow us to do more than an avatar could is if you were afk eating dinner during a fight.

[Covenant]

I'm officially gonna get off of the spirit fixes from this point on. I've said what I have to say about them. Also, as the OP states, I look forward to any change given to avatars also.

I forget where I stated it but at lvl 99, I'd like to see ALL avatars receive the "third" of elemental nukes(I'm not counting merited BP). Perhaps a ancient magic~aga or tier VI spell?

As far a "potentially" useful bloodwards perhaps a ward similar to a warmocampra's "Heat Barrier". Except being avatar, each elemental barrier would be represented(fire,earth,water, wind, water, light, dark, lightening). The ward would provided 2 buff simultaneously as barrier does namely Enspell and spike...perhaps make them a bit stronger into the tier 2 range. Of course , they'd be AoE.

I could even envision a avatar/summoner ONLY buff that pushes the Enspell and spikes to "tier 3" levels whatever that is.

[Malamasala]

My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled.

But it fills them better. Which as I quote, is your argument for avatar updates.

But that is enough pointing fingers at your biased opinions. It isn't like you aren't allowed to have them. I just tried to explain why they were biased. Probably more for SE staff than you.

[Razushu]

But it fills them better. Which as I quote, is your argument for avatar updates.

But that is enough pointing fingers at your biased opinions. It isn't like you aren't allowed to have them. I just tried to explain why they were biased. Probably more for SE staff than you.

Each of the utilities that you listed for "fixed" spirits is already filled by Avatars, so what is the point? We get it you like spirits, but that's a pretty awful reason to adjust spirits. Your own bias is very clear, you want to use spirits day to day, so you will ignore things like they're far weaker than Avatars.

Summoner needs a boost not new toys that leave us exactly where we are now. Thats why I agrue for a boost to Avatars over spirits, every job has tools it leaves behind as it levels up and Summoner is no exception. Saying spirits are broken , is akin to a BLM complaining that Fire doesn't do enough damage any more.

Spirits have a use already they are a great emergency pet, light spirit can give Pro/Shell V before a solo fight, and they give us a big chunk of MP back every 5 minutes. For everything else there's Avatars, and as it stands they are better buffers, nukers, DDs/Tanks and healers, why on earth would you want SE to waste time buffing spirits to near the level of current Avatars when they could better spend it buffing the Avatars.

I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.

For the record I'm not against a buff to spirits completely. I'm just against it now when there's so much more the job needs, that the devs would better much better employed fixing the things the job uses 90% of the time before it looks at stuff we play with occasionally.

[Covenant]

So what are the buffs of people would like see? I've named quite a few, but in generals the buff people want for a avatar are the same buff everyone wants, namely melee damage and haste. There also the AoE suggestion floating around. This damage can be either physical or magical in nature.

I look at bluemages for inspiration. Most if not all of their spells offer dual, or tri effects under one spell use. At this point in the game why can Summoners expect their avatar's Bloodpacts to feature not only damage but increased debuffs?

I've had this idea for redmage for like forever, but willing to let a summoner have it. A spell/bloodpact called Murk. Murk would drop evasion, give blindness, and gravity to mobs.

Diabolos better get his "curse" move....what is it? Cacodemonia? Something like that. And what about his BIO III? While I truly enjoy Nightmare, what about giving Diabolos "Sleep III"? How about Barsleepara II or III? Or what about a bloodwards that grants TP/MP/HP whole under sleep called "Wet Dream"?

Carbuncle "light shield" bloodwards, occasionally absorbs damage. Enlighten II?

Garuda AoE "Shroud" AoE invisible/sneak isn't it about time? Improved "Shroud" chance to avoid True Sight/sound.

Titan. "Sentinel"(same as Paladin). Def up and enmity up. "Full Force strike" a strong attack, strong knock back, bind.

Fenrir. "Firestarter" severe Burn(think tier 2 or 3) and accuracy down(on the account your on fire).

I'd like to examine giving each avatar a version of "absorb type spell" but tier II. Fenrir-STR, TiTan-VIT, Garuda-AGI, Ramuh-DEX, Etc. Or, giving them the next tier of elemental debuffs such as BurnII, ChokeII, etc. Number wise maybe
20-50 stats(resistance, but NO decay just straight duration, DoT effects.). Or, similar to scholar helix or even better a blue Mage "breath attack".

I gonna suggest a cheat now...how about a bloodpact that summons an extra elemental to fight beside it. Think bloodpact 200-300mp, duration(as long as avatar is out). Elemental will occasionally cast an elemental nuke on avatar healing damage? Elemental will share hate only with Avatar.

As far as a Summoner Job ability, how about "Charm Elemental"? A summoner will be able to charm(as a Beastmaster) random elementals. Once Charm the same rules of charm works, however A modify -mp per starts. Perhaps a lower cost than regular spirits(since at any moment can be in harmed). Elemental Siphon still functional. Think this could be really useful especially at earlier levels.

[Malamasala]

I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.

I like updates that give a lot of of effect.

Improved avatar melee won't change a thing, except parser results.
Improved BP:Rage damage won't change a thing, except parser results.
Reducing perpetuation would allow low level SMNs to play... but these days low levels are gone so less important.

Improved BP timer will make a difference, and SE are working on this. Hopefully it will be a big difference.

Improving ward potency would make a large difference, and allow us to put up for example phalanx with useful potency.
Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.
Improving favors so that it isn't just a negative with very little positive bonus would also go a long way.


I simply want updates that make people go "Oh, you can do that now?" rather than having to say "Did you see that? My avatar melee hit did 100 damage". I have a feeling that the job will be more popular if it visibly is updated, than if you have to go on a forum and post a parse to show the update difference.

Spirit update -> People ask why you use spirits -> They get amazed at the big change -> Spread word that SMN is much better now.
Avatar damage update -> Nobody notices because WAR still does highest damage -> You have to advertise the changes yourself.

I still think that even if you dislike my ideas, those benefit SMNs more in the long run. Assuming of course that they "Fix" things, and not just do a half-assed attempt and end up with something like favors, which is just not good enough to give a new role to SMN and impress people.