FFXI death, PS2 fault?

[Miiyo]

Notice these server merges? This is the result of people leaving. So that's one source of decline. Decrease in sales. Killing off a good percentage of players to upgrade when you're not SURE how it'll affect longevity, not smart. Still, it's a second source of decline. No company will willingly add a reason for their paying customers to stop paying.

Charging to pay for a massive upgrade would cover production costs, but, it won't cover the people you loss as well as the people who can't afford the upgrade. The only way the game could be upgraded is if they made a bigger hard drive for the ps2. If they can't afford to play on pc or xbox, what's the chance they'll have the money to purchase a new hard drive? This is why 14 was created. It's hard but we'll eventually have to let XI go. Fear not, SE makes their mistakes since they are human, but they like money, so FFXIV will be great (i think it's just "good" right now).

[Mirage]

Keep in mind the issue is not upgrading the game, but alienating the client base.

Shutting down support for a PS2 version of the game would removing some players only means of playing the game and result in a loss of players and revenue (how much depends on the figures of course).

I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that 90% or more of the people playing it on PS2 have a computer capable of running FF11, even with a few more additions to the game that could be put in after the PS2 support was dropped.

Performing a system-wide graphics upgrade after the PS2 is removed would jeopardize many current PC players. This game runs on practically any computer right now and that's a huge benefit. You cannot simply look at PS2 vs PC player stats - you would need to know how many people play the game on net-top boxes (ITX systems and even atom/ion systems run FFXI perfectly and are a more affordable solution than a new rig or auction-purchasing a PS2), how many play the game through virtual machines (linux/mac), how many people play the game on older laptops or desktops that can't even power a new graphics card.

A graphics upgrade would be nice, for sure, but think of it this way... how many "general" computer users would be upset if Microsoft came out and upgraded MineSweeper (on all versions of windows) to an all-out HD awesomeness game that only a 16 core, 48gb RAM, latest gen graphics card could handle?

This is a bit of a straw-man. The truth is that FF11 runs in an extremely inefficient way, and even computers with onboard graphics solutions would see an increase in performance if they made the game not render practically everything using the CPU. Keeping options to let players keep using the current level of graphics, but optimizing the game for how PCs actually work, would benefit even players with Intel "Extreme" Graphics. It could allow them to display more character models before they saw a decrease in framerate, for example.

If you place consumers in a position where they must upgrade a system to continue playing a game they have been able to play for 9 years, they are either going to quit playing or they will upgrade their system and start playing newer games. It's an overall loss to the player base in any real analysis and that's devastating to MMOs.

more strawmen. No one is arguing that the game should be so overhauled that it wouldn't run on old hardware. As far as I'm concerned, I just want options for real antialiasing, better texture filtering, better and more realistic shadows and lighting effects, uncapped framerate, and allowing the GPU to actually accelerate the rendering of the game, allowing me to get 60 fps at a crowded auction house with 8x AA without my PC even breaking a sweat.

Choosing to not use these settings would allow old PCs to run - it at worst - like they do today. At best, better.

[Firesped]

I think SE should develop a PS3 version to replace the PS2 version. I don't know about other regions, but in North America, you can't even get a PS2 with a hard drive unless you buy a refurbished unit. And even then the only game that even came with and used the hard drive was the original release of FFXI.
So the real question is would a PS3 native client, which people would have to go out and buy, be cost effective.

[Nightshade]

The best you'll ever see in dropping PS2 support is FFXI-2: Same world, same mecanic, same initial content, stand-alone. Maybe if you're nice, they will support account backward compatibility to port your character.

In software, the rule of thumb is that minimal spec cannot be altered regardless of how many patches have been made for a software. If you want to change the minimal spec, you must make a new release. Those who doesn't normally follow that rule usually have conflicts with customer.

Don't expect PS2 being dropped and hope for a stand-alone remake.

Also, courtesy normally wants the developer to implement backward compatibilty for the users to keep what is already gained but from there on, the new release can no longer interact with the old.

[Rambus]

Be nice to have more offical servays like that, but if PS2 users are really that low its time to cut thee ties to it.

[Alhanelem]

FFXI death, PS2 fault?

Yes, it is.

[Shewp]

Yes, it is.

Yep. The PS2 is like having a giant fat person chained on top of you, it really limits where you can go. Set us free SE!

[Emissary]

I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that 90% or more of the people playing it on PS2 have a computer capable of running FF11, even with a few more additions to the game that could be put in after the PS2 support was dropped.



This is a bit of a straw-man. The truth is that FF11 runs in an extremely inefficient way, and even computers with onboard graphics solutions would see an increase in performance if they made the game not render practically everything using the CPU. Keeping options to let players keep using the current level of graphics, but optimizing the game for how PCs actually work, would benefit even players with Intel "Extreme" Graphics. It could allow them to display more character models before they saw a decrease in framerate, for example.



more strawmen. No one is arguing that the game should be so overhauled that it wouldn't run on old hardware. As far as I'm concerned, I just want options for real antialiasing, better texture filtering, better and more realistic shadows and lighting effects, uncapped framerate, and allowing the GPU to actually accelerate the rendering of the game, allowing me to get 60 fps at a crowded auction house with 8x AA without my PC even breaking a sweat.

Choosing to not use these settings would allow old PCs to run - it at worst - like they do today. At best, better.

If they have a computer at all, they likely can run FFXI before a graphics change - I agree. That doesn't mean those people with a PS2 would want to run it on their computer though. The PS2 version was released well after the PC version and required both a conscious choice and significantly more money for players to choose that route. My gut feeling is that most people that chose to play on the PS2 chose that because it was on a console not on a PC. So regardless of whether they could run it elsewhere, that may not be the issue. They would probably just quit instead.

You can force the game (at least with NVIDIA cards because I used to do it) to run gorgeously by manually tweaking the rendering settings (both in the registry for FFXI and in the control panel for the card - it takes a good day of playing around with it to get it the way you want, but it can be done). It does not impact the issue of lag when trying to render several models in a town, but neither will any general graphics overhaul. That would be a larger rewrite involving the forced limitations on bandwidth and threads. You cannot download data directly to the graphics card and all MMOs slow in crowded areas for that same reason (the framerate drops in all cases because of memory and CPU limitations not GPU ones - happens in WoW and CoH which both have better graphics and much nice graphic engines).

What would get better? The limitation on textures and unique models. You would have a simple UI checkbox instead of having to trick the graphics card into forcing the settings. They could increase the bandwidth and optimize the data packets without having to adhere to the PS2 limitations/requirements (that would reduce the CPU usage and let you more intelligently pass it to the GPU). FFXI will run on dial-up at the same level of play as T1 - the forced bandwidth kills loading more than the graphics. That's a rewrite of key components to the game engine and a complete remake of the rendering engine (they have to come off directx 8 - the change to 9 would be reasonable, the change to 10 or 11 would be an enormous undertaking). Those are two huge cost and time syncs alone, not to mention almost all the models and textures in the game having to be redone (the largest area of cost in all gaming) - because if they don't update the models and textures at the same time, then the overall effect will be no different than you telling your graphics card to ramp the anti-aliasing before it hits the screen.

A few million dollars in changes to a game that doesn't have a player base to support that level of commitment ESPECIALLY after they just lost millions of dollars of expected revenue for creating a new MMO that did exactly that type of change but failed horribly. Of course it didn't fail because of its graphics - you do have to give it credit for being beautiful. But if I were an executive at Square, I would kind of being watching the wallets right now and pushing a complete overhaul of FFXI would not make the list.

So let's consider a middle-of-the-road solution. You still spend around a million, you drop PS2 support, and you push for 5 year old technology instead of 10 year old technology. You lose 15% of your player base. You attract no new players because there still isn't a PS3 version and the graphics are still dated by any modern standard. It's a net loss to the company for development and a loss of fixed revenue to boot.

I'm not really dismissing your arguments - they are very good points, but it can't be done halfway at this point - we're talking bigger than just an upgrade. I just don't see a path that doesn't cause them to lose money (on a large scale). What they can count on though is the people that are still playing today are probably going keep playing a while longer even if there are no changes to the engine. Stable is always better than risky in the global financial environment we're stuck in right now.

Had FF14 brought the numbers they were expecting, I don't think we would even be having this discussion. I think you would have seen an engine update to FFXI and dropping PS2 support. Now... maybe in another year or two? hard to say.

[Hotsume]

You make an excellent point. I only wish it wasn't true.

[Myew]

@Emissary
"The PS2 version was released well after the PC version "
I am sure you actually meant the reverse. The PC version was always planned and was released only 6 months after the PS2 version. People knew there would be a PC release before the game even came out. The only reason the numbers of PS2 players in Japan is relatively high is simply because it was released on the PS2 first. In NA, it was released on the PC first with a 5 month delay for the PS2 version. (Due to Sony pushing back the HDD release date)

Your technical knowledge is limited at best and full of hyperbole. Changing the registry settings would take 5 minutes at most. It doesn't matter what graphics card manufacturer you are using as long as it isn't older than a PS2. And the graphics pipeline is not the issue when it comes to slow down. (Sole exception being the Conflux crystals)

What would change. The real issue here isn't graphics, but system memory. The PS2 is sporting only 32M of RAM. Your damn phone has more memory than this. Everything you have immediate access to needs to be loaded into RAM. This means ever job, ability, spell, inventory, equipment, global model, auto-translate definitions, etc all need to be existing simultaneously. The wizards at SE have been doing a marvelous job finding ways to fit more and more into this memory chunk. They are mostly out now. If they increased the minimum memory footprint then they would be able to add more areas, jobs, etc. This would of course mean they have to drop PS2 support in order to do the increase.