Jupiter's staff question

[Catsby]

You guys just want to be angry and to point out flaws. Nobody gave a damn back when I first said I thought I found something now you're pissed that I don't care anymore (but to be honest I didn't care back then either). No I don't have the Kparser logs anymore but guess what? I'm not writing a research paper about critical hit rate and you guys aren't the review board you seem to think you are. If you want to prove you are more neckbearded than I am then go do some testing of your own. Just don't forget to record your results or I'll straw man you into submission ~.^

[Swords]

Where did I say that?

The fact you don't care which stat boosts critical hit rate is stupid. For example, if AGI boosts crit rate then pieces like Seiryu's Kote and Hachiryu Sune-Ate suddenly become potentially worthwhile. If DEX boosts crit rate, Hachiryu Kote and Byakko's Haiadate could become worthwhile. Outside abyssea you will not have capped crit rate. Melees needed something like 125 dex to cap crit rate on colibri (which have low AGI) at 75, just for refference.

Would you sacrifice all your R.Atk/R.Acc/AGI mod gear and kill your damage output just to push out an extra few% on your critical hit rate through DEX?

AGI is tacked onto nearly every piece of RNG gear out there, DEX nowhere near as much. SE has obviously been trying to push RNG's damage through critical hits via AF3 and the new Dead Aim trait. However, I think it would had made much more sense to build RNG around DEX or DEX/AGI setups instead of almost purely AGI if SE had intended DEX to be the determining factor for ranged crits. The only exception to this is the DEX mod for Jishnu's Radiance, but if you take a look at all the other Emp Weapons, there is about 4 or 5 other Emp WS's that have mods that make little sense.

[noodles355]

Would you sacrifice all your R.Atk/R.Acc/AGI mod gear and kill your damage output just to push out an extra few% on your critical hit rate through DEX?

Yes, because I understand how critical hits relate to DEX (melee), and you apparantly don't. Adding Dex to your gear set did very little untill you reached a certain value. After that value it shoots up at about 1Dex=1% Crit hit. For example, on Colibri at 75, that sweet spot where 1dex=1%crit was at 107 I believe. Crit rate would cap at 117 Dex. Say you had 77 base dex at 75. You would have a (floored+4% merits) crit rate of 9%. Adding 40 Dex to your set would only raise your crit rate by 5% to 14% total. Adding another 10 dex on top of that would increase your crit rate by 10%, to the cap of 24%.

This, for example, is why people used Byakko's Haiadate for Raging Rush over even things like Hachiryu Haiadate depending on the mob. It wasn't for the accuracy, it was because with their normal WS gear they would be hovering around 105-110 dex, and haiadate's 15DEX would give a significant boost to their criritcal hit rate and thus weaponskill damage.

So yes, if you were near that sweet spot where 1dex=1%crit, then yes, I would definitely concider swapping arr/att/str/wsc mods for dex. The same applies to ranged attacks. And this is why it's important. We should naturally have a decent amount of AGI in our WS set, similar to how most melee WS sets tend to have a decent amount of dex, even though they have geared for STR. If AGI affects crit rate for ranged attacks, then, similar to how byakko's haiadate often beat out hachiryu haiadate (at capped acc) on raging rush, it's likely high AGI pieces like empyrean feet will beat out other ratk/racc/etc pieces like relic feet.

If Dead Aim is ever changed to apply to ranged weaponskills then the boost from that increased hit rate will be even more significant, and if you are getting close to that AGI sweet spot, AGI gear should crap all over acc/att/str/wsc mod pieces. If Dex affects our crit rate, then those high-agi pieces like empyrean feet and skote become pretty worthless for crit WSs.

I hope I explained that clearly enough.

[Swords]

Noodles I'm entirely familiar with the concepts and formulas of DEX, I do however know that outside of a few hard to come by pieces of gear, RNG does not get access to excessive amounts of high DEX gear that supports ranged attacks like they do with AGI. If you don't have access to pieces like Byakkos Haidate, Hahiryu Kote, Kirin's Osode and/or Loki's Kaftan you would have to give up many more gearslots to hit the "Sweet Spot" and cap your ranged crit rate, and realistically the average player probably only has Loki's or a KO.

Keeping that in mind, what good would it do you, to go all out with DEX gear to cap your ranged critical hit rate if your normal ranged damage falls significantly by say 1/3 or more. The whole concept of using DEX as a modifier for ranged critical hits is extremely double-edged for RNG, unlike normal melee classes. Hence why I said it makes much more sense to believe AGI affects ranged critical hit rate instead of DEX, especially where 90% of RNG and ranged gear has been built around AGI.

I hope that clarifies what I've been trying to convey.

[noodles355]

You state it would make more sense, and be more useful if AGI affected ranged critical hits instead of DEX. As I pointed, and you confirm above, crit builds would be more viable with AGI as the crit modifier. This we both agree on.

Yet you state finding out which stat affects critical hit rate as not very important. It is pretty damn important. If it's with DEX, then as you mention without key items like loki's/osode, byakkos and hachiryu, it would be very difficult to work and probably not very worthwhile. If the modifier is AGI, then it opens up more options as the AGI target for the critical sweet spot would be easier to reach, and many pieces we thought useless would become the best pieces for damage under certain conditions. On the other hand if it is DEX, then DEX builds would be key to high damage Jishnu's, as it both increases crit rate and damage through the 60% WSC. If it's AGI, then you would have to weigh up AGI (for crit rate) and DEX for damage, in a similar way to comparing Byakkos (for crit) or hachiryu (for str) for melee WSs.

Learning which stat increases ranged attack critical hit rate is important, and should play a large factor in gearing your WS set if you use Jishnu's Radiance.

[Swords]

You state it would make more sense, and be more useful if AGI affected ranged critical hits instead of DEX. As I pointed, and you confirm above, crit builds would be more viable with AGI as the crit modifier. This we both agree on.

The whole reason I've been debating the entire thing to begin with, is because there is nothing to figure out. AGI has always been the determining factor for just about everything related to ranged attacks including the critical hit rate. Anything I've posted previously pushes how DEX and Ranged attacks just don't mix like it does with close ranged melee. Yet you've been seemingly adamant about even trying to test this out for yourself, and would rather hold onto the possibility that DEX is still a determining factor.

Like I stated in a previous post, SE has been pushing the critical hit damage gear for RNG ever since Abyssea came out, there should be no argument between us there. With that in mind, SE would have given RNG alot more DEX gear instead of drowning us in AGI gear, IF DEX really was the stat for ranged crits.

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate in or out of Abyssea.

[Catsby]

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate in or out of Abyssea.

What was the number of DEX over target AGI for capping crit rate? Something like +50 if I remember correctly. I wonder if that rule applies to ranged crits.

[noodles355]

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate [...] out of Abyssea.

Weak mobs at 75 had around 60-70 AGI. You needed around 110-120 DEX to cap crit rate. It's pretty fair to assume mobs you'd be fighting at level 90 (Lv. 95-100ish) would have 80-90 AGI (This is a number that most people use when theory crafting). That would mean you would need 130-140AGI to cap crit rate. In a standard Good ranger TP set, that doesn't use either Skote or AF3 feet, you're looking at around 100-110 AGI. You can get that to 130-140ish with pieces like Skotes, AF3 feet, scout's belt, etc, but you're statement of "it shouldn't even be a challenge" is wrong. Obtaining the gear is not a challenge, deciding to use pure AGI gear (Af3 feet and skote for example) over better damage gear (Blood Fng. Gnt/AF3 hands depending, and Relic Feet +1) is a challenge.
You, like so many other posters who don't actually look into ger sets and stats enough, would do well to shut up and stop posting false infomation without even a hint of research.

The argument of "There's a lot of AGI on rng gear so it probably affects crit rate" is very weak. There's a lot of Vit on drg gear, even AF3, yet Vit is only useful for Jump (Not High Jump, Super Jump, spirit Jump or Soul Jump... just Jump). As mentioned, Dnc has a lot of gear with chr. Because Chr is useful for healing. Thf has gear with Chr, because of dancing edge. Drk has gear with int and mnd, mnd because it's a mod on guillotine and int because of their elemental magic. Ranger has a lot of AGI gear. All RNG WSs except Jishnu's have AGI mods. AGI increases Racc. These two are reason enough to put AGI on a lot of RNG gear. It's not reason enough to argue that AGI affects crit rate for ranged attacks.
Furthermore, you say "Rng gear has lots of agi but little dex". That is not accurate either. Yes, artifact, relic and empyrean maybe, however most of ranger's other gear is shared by other light armor jobs like cor, thf, dnc, etc and generally has a good amount of dex on too. Aurore, Skadi, Denali, etc.

It really is a simple test to do. Go out for a merit alliance in abyssea. Fight a decent number of monsters with an atma which has neither crit rate, dex or agi on. Fight the same amount of monsters with atma of the kirin (agi+) then fight same again with a high dex atma (omnipotent). Parse resullts. It should be fairly obvious as one should raise your crit rate by at least 10%. Fight strong enough (IT dom op) monsters so that cruor buffs alone aren't enough to cap dDex (or dAGI, whichever it turns out to be).

The only reasonable argument so far for AGI affecting ranged crit rate is "It;s more logical". To that Iw ould reply "Hi, are you new to FFXI? Are you new to SquareEnix?" Logic means jack diddly. This is SE we're talking about.

You may have done a test but if you can't provide data then it is meaningless. I could come and say "I've done thousands of tests with CHR and enmity increase and decrease and noticed that CHR does affect enmity." But if i dont have proof to back pup these claims then they are completely worthless.

[Alkalinehoe]

Kind of like how there are tons of CHR gear for DNC? Does that mean CHR affects their crit rate? No, It's used as a mod for a JA. Same goes for AGI. AGI is a mod for nearly every WS available to RNG, it doesn't have to be more than that. You guys are merely assuming since a lot of RNG gear has AGI it must be the stat that does everything for RNG without having any proof.

And I bring up credibility because you want people to believe you when you can't even cough up some evidence to support your claims and then freak out when people don't take you seriously.

[Catsby]

Kind of like how there are tons of CHR gear for DNC? Does that mean CHR affects their crit rate? No, It's used as a mod for a JA. Same goes for AGI. AGI is a mod for nearly every WS available to RNG, it doesn't have to be more than that. You guys are merely assuming since a lot of RNG gear has AGI it must be the stat that does everything for RNG without having any proof.

And I bring up credibility because you want people to believe you when you can't even cough up some evidence to support your claims and then freak out when people don't take you seriously.

That's not a good enough analogy because crit rate isn't by job. Melee strikes from a dancer are similarly to those by a warrior. Also, there's info out there suggesting AGI modifies ranged accuracy in the same fashion that DEX modifies melee accuracy.

I don't want people to believe me. I only brought up what I noticed during my own testing and encouraged others to test further since I really don't care to do so myself. I also didn't "freak out".