Why Make Jobs useless ?

[Hayward]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

[Sparthos]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.

[Hyrist]

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.

Way to shift the blame.

Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

SE was fumbling about trying to create an environment that would be friendly towards the most players possible. They did this trying to create varying possible exp environments for varying types of jobs. It was a Trial-and-Error method that resulted in the systems we have now. (FoV, GoV, Dominion Ops, Abyssean Parties in general.) That piratically floods EXP at the player, which made the game greater as a whole for it.

But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.


This said, it works both ways. If you're in a group that prefers to stick to the most effective job combination for party play, and you're wanting to say with your favorites, you're with the wrong crowd. If you feel as if you're having difficulty finding like minded, more casual players, then perhaps it's time you considered forking over the $25 to hop onto a more casual server.

Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

But you're always going to run into min/maxers and elitists. They're inevitable in any Multiplayer game. Best thing to do, for all comers, is to find those who will accept you and your character for how you play, and what jobs you wish to play as. Neither playstyle is wrong, but the animosity between them is an issue, one that won't resolve itself any time quickly due to how polarized things are and how crazy the arguments can get.

Best thing to do, is to just split them up, as best as possible, and let them play the way they want.

[Sparthos]

Way to shift the blame.

More like accepting the facts as is. SE makes the game and ultimately calls the shots on what jobs will be most effective at their new events.

Are you going to ignore that Atmas killed off the need for buffers, HP boosts kill off the need for dedicated tanks and damage dealing becomes something anyone can do thanks to cruor support? This was all created by SE and they darn well knew what would happen in a world where anyone can be a god.

Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

So exactly how would you suggest covering procs given the system SE has presented us with? Take a PLD? Take a DRK? While these jobs can cover procs, WAR is the best option along with NIN given the weaponskills that trigger red. Naturally, these jobs are in highest demand and are what people are going to answer with when someone asks "What jobs do I need to get Razed Ruins off Ironclad?"

It's not elitist, it's common sense. If you have access to a PLD or a WAR, you're going to take the class with the most procs (WAR) and ability to deal damage (WAR). If you don't have a WAR, then you start working your way down the totem pole.

But nevermind my ramblings, all the people shouting in Jeuno for +1 seals/+2 items must be elitists when they ask for WAR NIN BLU BRD BLM. Yes, all of them.

Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

If by break you mean giving people honest answers then yes, min/maxers give it to you straight. No one is outright telling you to not bring certain classes but it'd be dishonest to say those jobs will be crucial if you already have the core jobs covered.

Im not going to delude a DRG into thinking they'll be awesome in Abyssea when players are swimming in damage and the job has few procs.

Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

And who created this environment? That's right, SE did. They took years to balance 2handers with 1handers, took years to adjust classes that needed adjustment and still haven't even addressed the issues with many classes.

It was never an exclusive club either. If you had the classes, you were often invited to EXP. Burn parties were created by casual and elite alike to combat the harsh EXP requirements needed to level up in an environment where SE wanted to keep people grinding for the sake of grinding.

Don't attempt to paint burns as an elite creation when EVERYONE was using the setup @merits for years.

But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

If the min/maxers want it all to themselves, why are so many guides out there created on how to actually build your own Cata/Cleave/Whisker parties/setups?

Furthermore, when did Edge/Cata/Cleave/Whisker come out? Oh right, during the age of Abyssea with the purpose of being used to AOE down weak mobs.

SE knew exactly what they were doing when they released all of those AOE attacks and that was to give anyone the capability of staying in Abyssea alone for whatever reason.

It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.

Yes, I should lie to people and tell them they are all unique snowflakes with infinite potential.

No one is telling you to jump on the bandwagon moreso that certain classes just don't work inside Abyssea. You can solo on NMs on BST but without those procs you're going to be slow to finish anything - and if that works for you, fine. Just don't chastise people for promoting the most ideal setups that lead to success.

Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

As a former Linkshell leader, my credo was always to cater to my teammates so long as catering to them didn't cost us the ability to win the event. If this meant having someone come out on their not-so-good job, so be it - so long as we could win the event.

I find that people often just aren't honest with themselves when it comes to the state of their class due to the parameters that SE sets up. SE made Abyssea a world where in party play you want procs which lead to cherrypicking the best class for procs and drops. If you don't like that? You can find people willing to let you have fun, make your own groups and insert yourself on X job or simply resign yourself to having a wide variety of jobs to choose from.

At the end of the day, SE calls the shots on what jobs will be needed most. With Voidwatch they've already shifted the ball back to BRD/COR/SMN/PLD/RNG - all jobs that Abyssea shunned.

[Ravenmore]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

Its not only them people that don't even go to these site will also only take what is needed to proc so they will get the most. That is why you need friends and don't do pugs. Real friends won't mind helping. I have duoed many seal NMs with friends not even really worrying about procs, did it take longer yes, did we have fun doing it yes, did we kill slower then a group going after the same mob with procs no. Atma mobs are the only mobs were getting red proc is a must and SMN can cover one of them saving the war one weapon to change to. To cover red nin and war can be enough but you don't have to only take a nin and a war you can take other jobs. There is no party size limit.

[Dallas]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

Hey now, BG needs to be around to turn melee SMN threads into a Broadway production.

If you want to play a job you actually enjoy, just do it. Remember that no matter how smart they think they are, they still argued for Salvage exploits.