Why Make Jobs useless ?

[Sparthos]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.

[Ravenmore]

I was more speaking of events and Content geared towards collecting Atma and cool gear ect. On my server even Pick-Up groups will rarely invite a SMN to any NM type group. And as for unwritten rules has consideration been given to the fact that they create the very folks who don't know their job often complained about? By accepting only particular jobs newer folks may feel compelled to go level those very jobs with out the time and support needed to really master a job. Maybe it would be better to welcome all jobs and allow players to put their best job forward. For example, I am a very inexperienced white mage but I can hold my own with any summoner requirements.

Again find better friends. All the atma's can be killed duo, nothing needs a full LS. Why bother with pick up groups you get better results with out them.

[Hyrist]

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.

Way to shift the blame.

Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

SE was fumbling about trying to create an environment that would be friendly towards the most players possible. They did this trying to create varying possible exp environments for varying types of jobs. It was a Trial-and-Error method that resulted in the systems we have now. (FoV, GoV, Dominion Ops, Abyssean Parties in general.) That piratically floods EXP at the player, which made the game greater as a whole for it.

But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.


This said, it works both ways. If you're in a group that prefers to stick to the most effective job combination for party play, and you're wanting to say with your favorites, you're with the wrong crowd. If you feel as if you're having difficulty finding like minded, more casual players, then perhaps it's time you considered forking over the $25 to hop onto a more casual server.

Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

But you're always going to run into min/maxers and elitists. They're inevitable in any Multiplayer game. Best thing to do, for all comers, is to find those who will accept you and your character for how you play, and what jobs you wish to play as. Neither playstyle is wrong, but the animosity between them is an issue, one that won't resolve itself any time quickly due to how polarized things are and how crazy the arguments can get.

Best thing to do, is to just split them up, as best as possible, and let them play the way they want.

[Ravenmore]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

Its not only them people that don't even go to these site will also only take what is needed to proc so they will get the most. That is why you need friends and don't do pugs. Real friends won't mind helping. I have duoed many seal NMs with friends not even really worrying about procs, did it take longer yes, did we have fun doing it yes, did we kill slower then a group going after the same mob with procs no. Atma mobs are the only mobs were getting red proc is a must and SMN can cover one of them saving the war one weapon to change to. To cover red nin and war can be enough but you don't have to only take a nin and a war you can take other jobs. There is no party size limit.

[Neonii]

Again find better friends. All the atma's can be killed duo, nothing needs a full LS. Why bother with pick up groups you get better results with out them.

Thank you for the suggestion it is much appreciated. Now I will answer to your question. What I did was finish leveling my sub job (whm) for events. The result was a quick burnout. I am a much better whm these days but what it took to get there ruined it for me (talk about crash and burn). As to why I was joining pick up groups the answer would be to complete armor sets. Now the issue for me would more to make friends who are willing to work together. The dynamics between the people on my friend list would derail this thread so I will not go into it.

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It's an honest question I have been around a little over a year so I missed a lot. My concern is the with the caliber of drops in Abyssea, such a limited number of appropriate jobs limits the fun factor.

[Ravenmore]

Thank you for the suggestion it is much appreciated. Now I will answer to your question. What I did was finish leveling my sub job (whm) for events. The result was a quick burnout. I am a much better whm these days but what it took to get there ruined it for me (talk about crash and burn). As to why I was joining pick up groups the answer would be to complete armor sets. Now the issue for me would more to make friends who are willing to work together. The dynamics between the people on my friend list would derail this thread so I will not go into it.

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It is a earnest question I only been around a little over a year so I really want to know.
My concern is the caliber of drops in Abyssea locking folks onto jobs they do not enjoy or even understand in order to get the yummy treats. Abyssea has a lot of content to have to feel like one is doing chores to access and complete.

The game is far more forgiving now then it has been at any other point in time. All the seal mobs that epople prefer outside of bodies are retarded easy to duo. Hell I kill sirrush with my rdm friend the other day on blu I coulda just soloed it he didnt have to heal me once no procs on half of the fights got 4 seals he needed in little under a hour. Could have been done faster if we had gotten more procs but really whats the rush.

[Neonii]

Ahh lol I edited that post it sounded a little to much like a whine. Its good to hear that the game is more forgiving. Plus I really enjoy doing things with my ls mates. They are all around pretty cool.

[Byrth]

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It is a earnest question I only been around a little over a year so I really want to know.
My concern is the caliber of drops in Abyssea locking folks onto jobs they do not enjoy or even understand in order to get the yummy treats. Abyssea has a lot of content to have to feel like one is doing chores to access and complete.

Event structure always determines which jobs are optimal for events. The closer to optimal you are, the better you do the event and the quicker you get geared. Some events were almost impossible if you did not have the correct jobs (like Salvage). If you brought too many inefficient jobs to Salvage, you either squander the few cells that you get or spend too long farming cells to gear people.

That said, people are free to bring Summoners to Abyssea and not grellow proc as often. They're free to come Dragoon + Dark Knight + Ninja instead of Warrior + Ninja. How you play is going to be dictated by the other people in the group. If you find other people that are fine with you going whatever job you prefer, and you're fine with them going whatever job they prefer, then you're free to play that way and collect shinies half as fast.

I guess these are kind of just different ways to play. Some people really enjoy being good at a specific job, and some people really enjoy being part of a good team. If you're the second category, you come whatever job is needed and play whatever role you can to your maximum ability. If you're the first category, you generally spend a lot of time wishing you were on a different job.

Take Salvage as an example of an event that's unforgiving to inefficiency. You're given a certain number of "cells" to unlock abilities/spells/equipment/stats/etc. and have to distribute them most efficiently. I had way more fun in Salvage than any other FFXI event, and I had to play RDM (my least favorite job) at least half the runs.

[Ravenmore]

Salvage was the event you really didn't want to take more then the bare min. Not only for the cells but with the drop rate as low as they were you really didn't want to many people wanting a cut. Atma hunting is even better since if you don't want the drops who cares how many you take.

[Malamasala]

I had way more fun in Salvage than any other FFXI event, and I had to play RDM (my least favorite job) at least half the runs.

I've never been as bored as in Salvage. I played COR, which was all about waiting until everyone had abilities unlocked so they could do WSes and DD fast, and then last I get an ability so I can just roll. Forget armors, that was the last I'd get.

I spent most of my time naked, reading forums, during all my salvages. And I couldn't even read forums alone because it was all "pass! pass! pass!".

In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

Pretty much every event is "kill the monster" and favors all jobs that deal the maximum damage in shortest time. I'd say SMN excels at fishing though, since if you accidentally pull up a monster, you have a pet guarding you. (Now the fact that music tells you when it is a monster and you have 0% risk of pulling one up is another thing)

I still think this game needs a couple of monsters with +999 elemental damage a punch and deal like 5 damage normally, so avatars are perfect on them by absorbing the elemental damage. The sad part is that no other job would be useful, which would mean nobody would do this content unless it dropped WAR/SAM/PLD/BLM stuff so they were forced to do it.

Another thing would be monsters that die to spikes spells, so that people have to AOE spike themselves to not get killed by hundreds of monsters.

But overall it feels a bit silly to have to design content purely to address what SMN is good at, instead of making SMN good at the content that exists.