Extend Time Menu

[Raksha]

Really, are people complaining about this?

Well it started out with one guy asking why his stone only gave him 10 minutes of time, and snowballed from there. I got tired of threads getting locked so I created this one. I was just gonna let it fade into obscurity but ppl keep bumping it and bringing up flawed arguments.

Wall of text

I'm not gonna pretend that I read all of that, and I apologize you had to waste all that time typing it just have it ignored, but I think I get the gist of it. Any restrictions on time are irrelevant once you realize that you can stay inside forever.

I'm not even joking either, Unless there's some cap i'm unaware of, you could have, if you were hardcore enough, farmed up enough TEs to stay inside abyssea 24/7 since visions was released. Even through the japanese earthquake and any downtime due to updates.

You keep explaining to me WHY the system is designed this way, and I've already admitted that I don't give a damn about any of that. If you can stay inside forever with TEs, you should be able to stay inside for 408 minutes with stones.

[RAIST]

I'm not gonna pretend that I read all of that, and I apologize you had to waste all that time typing it just have it ignored, but I think I get the gist of it.

I think that is the biggest sign of your problem... you aren't reading what's on your screen. An btw, nearly all of that post was copy/pasted from popular sources of info, one of which was SE's own website.

Any restrictions on time are irrelevant once you realize that you can stay inside forever.

And no, you can't stay in there forever. At leastthe average person couldn't. you'd have to continually farm enough TE to cover the time for you to stay in there while you slept, went to work and/or school, etc.--which may be evidence if a bigger problem if you are dedicating that much time to stay in abyssea. Eventually, the server would shutdown for maintenance too, which would also burn down time as well....sometimes up to 11 hours in one shot.

So while it may be theoretically possible to saty in ther 24/7/365....I doubt any single normal person would do that.

You keep explaining to me WHY the system is designed this way, and I've already admitted that I don't give a damn about any of that. If you can stay inside forever with TEs, you should be able to stay inside for 408 minutes with stones.

This again shows how little you've really been paying attention to the posts. Next I almost expect to hear you saying there should be no time restrictions on any BCNM/ENM/KSNM/KCNM/HKCNM, Mission fight, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul Isle.....all the way to even Besieged.

Abyssea was meant to be, to some extent, specialized content. Other then level 30+ and restrictions built into the Visitant Status system, there is really nothing to seperate it from other content like traveling to a WotG zone.

[Raksha]

I think that is the biggest sign of your problem... you aren't reading what's on your screen. An btw, nearly all of that post was copy/pasted from popular sources of info, one of which was SE's own website.

You haven't posted anything original in a while, which is why I glossed over the massive wall of text. I've read and responed to every post in this thread. You are the only person who doesn't seem to understand my position.

And no, you can't stay in there forever. At leastthe average person couldn't. you'd have to continually farm enough TE to cover the time for you to stay in there while you slept, went to work and/or school, etc.--which may be evidence if a bigger problem if you are dedicating that much time to stay in abyssea. Eventually, the server would shutdown for maintenance too, which would also burn down time as well....sometimes up to 11 hours in one shot.

So while it may be theoretically possible to saty in ther 24/7/365....I doubt any single normal person would do that.

I don't think anyone would either, but again that is irrelevant. YOU COULD DO IT. The 'restrictions' you speak of don't actually restrict anyone or anything.

This again shows how little you've really been paying attention to the posts. Next I almost expect to hear you saying there should be no time restrictions on any BCNM/ENM/KSNM/KCNM/HKCNM, Mission fight, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul Isle.....all the way to even Besieged.

If I could stay inside of BCNMs forever by farming TEs, then yes I'd argue that I should also be able to extend my stay by adding more orbs (if orbs weren't R/E). You seem to be missing the point entirely. Those events are designed to be limited, abyssea is not. (EDIT: This came out wrong, Abyssa may have been originally designed to be limited, but that is no longer the case)

Abyssea was meant to be, to some extent, specialized content. Other then level 30+ and restrictions built into the Visitant Status system, there is really nothing to seperate it from other content like traveling to a WotG zone.

I'm afraid i don't understand the comparison. You're saying that abyssea is just another zone? Is there any other zone where I need an entry item, and have to continually fight monsters to stay inside? (You've already mentioned dynamis/limbus/etc.)

[RAIST]

That is the point.. if not for the Visitant Status mechaninc (having to get visitant status and keep getting time extended to maintain visitant status) it WOULD be just like an extension of WotG. not only is travel to Abyssea initiated thorugh Atomos, and some of the zones are WotG zones, but it also fits in as a side story to what is going on in WotG.

And I DO understand where you are FINALLY coming from after you've flip flopped a couple times. But YOU are not grasping WHY it was designed as it was, and for some strange reason, you either aren't reading, or can't figure out what this means:

Total time obtained for this stay: 120 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.

or even what it is telling you when this happens:

...request saved time....

Total time obtained for this stay: 60 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.

...add 48 minutes with a stone

Total time obtained for this stay: 108 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.


If you would just READ WHAT THE GAME IS TELLING YOU, THIS WOULD BE A NON ISSUE

And that is why it has been like this for a YEAR now, and the forum is not littered with people insisting it be changed. Everyone else seems to get it. If they don't get it the first time, they ask "WTF?", it gets explained, they learn how it works and thus understand how to properly use it, and move on.

you, however just don't seem to grasp it.

[Raksha]

And I DO understand where you are FINALLY coming from after you've flip flopped a couple times. But YOU are not grasping WHY it was designed as it was, and for some strange reason, you either aren't reading, or can't figure out what this means:

Total time obtained for this stay: 120 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.

or even what it is telling you when this happens:

...request saved time....

Total time obtained for this stay: 60 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.

...add 48 minutes with a stone

Total time obtained for this stay: 108 min.
Confrim.
Cancel.


If you would just READ WHAT THE GAME IS TELLING YOU, THIS WOULD BE A NON ISSUE

NO, YOU STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING.

I refuse to respond to any more of your posts until you can accurately articulate my position.

I'm not going to argue against your strawmen anymore.

[RAIST]

not a strawman--not sure you understand jsut what that term implies.

You claim that the menu needs to be changed because you can't do simple math to realize that if you spend any more stones after getting close to the cap, you risk loosing the value of that stone. no one elses seeems to have an issue with doint that. You however want them to rework the system so it tells you you are about to trash a stone, even though it has given you enough information to know that in advance.

here's yet another absurd analogy: I didn't realize when I listed my items that I was not going to make as much profit off the selling of my crafted items because of the listing fees, so now I want the AH to give me a reminder everytime I sell something that the listing fees will reduce my profits.

you know well in advance that you can only use stones to extend time during your first 120 minutes of requested/earned time. If, when requesting all your time at first entrance the system tells you your total time applied for this visit is close enough to the 120 cap that extending your stay with a stone will result in not redeeming that stone for the full value of that stone--then you ALREADY KNOW THAT UP FRONT. Likewise, if you know it was marginal, like 50 minutes to cap--any TE chests will put you in the same situation. If you go in with 68 minutes buffer to cap, then you SHOULD be able to discern that after 3 TE's you will be in the same situation.

IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT.

Edit:
Come to think of it, you really don't need to do any math. I'll do it for you and give you the magic number to watch for. You are getting 48 minutes per stone. If when adding either saved time, or saved time plus stones, or starting from 0 time and just adding stones--if the system tells you "your time applied for this session" is more than 72 minutes, using anymore stones will result in you loosing the value of that stone. It's really simple. Request saved time and only add a stone right away if your time is at or below 72. If after applying that stone it is still at or below 72, then add another stone--otherwise move one. If you are running out of time, you already know that you will lose time on that stone, so just be prepared to exit and reset. This way, you won't ever accidentally trash a stone. Just make sure you never add time with a stone after the NPC tells you that "your time applied for this session" is greater than 72 minutes. If you really want to get brave and daring, you can use 24 as another index--that is the limit for applying 2 stones, so if you are at 24 or less at startup, you can add two stones at once and be done with it.

You also keep carrying on about how senseless it is to have the limits on how much time you can request with stones. I and others have given plenty of reasons why this exists, and why it makes sense. It fits in with what goes on in the story, and is perfectly in line with what SE has done in the past. Even Aussalt follows some of the same rules--the limit on how many tags you can hold at once, and the automatic regeneration of your tags after use was probably part of the model used when designing the Traverser Stone acquistion portion.. Abyssea just relaxes it a bit by not capping off how many of them the NPC will hold for you.

All of this has it's roots based on mechanics that came before it, and then expanded on them. So it is in keeping with the tradition of the game, as well as the driection of the game as a whole--EVOLVING GRADUALLY to the more casual playstyle that everyone has been pushing for in recent years.

[Raksha]

not a strawman--not sure you understand jsut what that term implies.

You claim that the menu needs to be changed because you can't do simple math to realize that if you spend any more stones after getting close to the cap, you risk loosing the value of that stone. no one elses seeems to have an issue with doint that. You however want them to rework the system so it tells you you are about to trash a stone, even though it has given you enough information to know that in advance.

Wrong. Abso-freaking-lutely wrong. Please show me a post where I said I don't want to risk losing the value of a stone. In fact, quote for me any of my posts which you think explains my position.

We've been arguing about this for THREE threads now, how can you not understand the argument I am making?

Do you have some kind of cognitive dissonance that prevents you from understand the meaning of words that you read?

I've said numerous times That I KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE MENU WORKS. I KNOW EXACTLY WHY IT WAS DESIGNED THE WAY THAT IT WAS DESIGNED.

[SIZE="7"]THE WAY IT WORKS, AND THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED ARE USELESS AND SHOULD BE CHANGED[/SIZE]

Perhaps you have me confused with Raxiaz the guy who made the second thread, I have never said I couldn't understand how the menu works. I have said, on many occasions that I FIGURED OUT EXACTLY HOW THE MENU WORKS THE FIRST TIME I USED IT, AND THAT I HAVE NEVER USED IT SINCE THEN, BECAUSE IT IS USELESS.

I have done the math, I know 72 + 48 = 120

Am I going to have to go back through the other two threads and quote to you all the times I've attempted to correct your misunderstandings?

A strawman argument is when a person argues against a distorted version of an argument.

That is what you are doing, you are arguing that I'm unaware of how and why the menu works, and are completely missing the point.

[RAIST]

You have actually jumped around on issues concerning Visitant Status, and ultimately shifted it to a debate completely different from what it originally was.

You've stated that you 100% supported the notion that you should not be able to redeem a stone for partial credit because they've hit the cap.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post126898

Originally Posted by Raxiaz
It is restrictive, you can only have so many stones on you at once.

I understand the reasoning behind it, but that just makes me wish it didn't exist at all. Those unknowing of how the "Extend time" function work could suffer. I myself only got 17 minutes out of a stone that would've been 42 minutes. That's less than half of the stone's worth.

I just don't think it's right to allow that option when it's not really doing anything in the first place. If someone wanted to extend time, they'd want or need to do it at the start of abyssea. In other words, their lights aren't built yet, and they can exit and re-enter to turn in stones.

No point in turning in stones if it's going to return less than 50% of its value, IMO.

I agree with this post 100%.

In a previous thread, you more or less had the same message, and even called it a bug:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123252

Originally Posted by danz
when you request additional time on a visitant status NPC in abyssea, it doesn't have options to choose how many stones, just 1,

and when you do submit that stone for extended time, it says it sets your time to 120 min, however. this isn't what is doing.

1. it eats ALL of your stones. so if you have 4, it doesn't eat just 1. it eats all 4

2. it doesn't even extend the time. requested to add time @37 min, after, was still the same

big issue here... how this even passed QC is beyond me.

Yeah that menu has been bugged for eternity.

If you go above 120 minutes, then down below 120 minutes, trying to add time will result in you getting 0 extra minutes. That's either seriously bugged, or a massively retarded design. I choose to give the devs the benefit of a doubt and say it's bugged.

This was debunked (not only by my post I might add) and it was shown NOT to be a bug (I have actually seena moderator respond to that effect). Then, a debate insued because you later start calling it retarded and arguing you never claimed it was a bug, when in fact you did twice in one post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123620

Originally Posted by RAIST
And that is how the stones have always worked, as I mentioned above. You can only request a total of 120 minutes per visit. You requested your saved 117 minutes when you first went in, leaving you with only 3 more minutes to request. When you used your stone, it capped out at the 120 minutes of requested time, giving you the balance of 3 minutes.

What you needed to do was exit the maw and come back in (resetting your request cap to 120 again), request your saved ~34 minutes, then use your remaining stone to tack on the 30 minutes (or more if you had the abyssites granting bonus minutes).

Edit: Details from the wiki on the main Abyssea page:

Yeah it's always been that way, but what we are saying is that it is RETARDED.

eventually you finally admit that you don't think it is a bug, but then you start saying that it serves no purpose if it is not going to allow you to trade a stone and not get the full value of that stone:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123826

Originally Posted by RAIST
Ok, there you go again....missing the point. A bug implies an error in the programming. There IS NO ERROR -- that is how it is designed to function.
Originally Posted by Raksha
I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think it's bugged, I think it's retardedly designed.
IF you don't like the way they choose to mange your time, that is a disagreement with the design,
Originally Posted by Raksha
I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think it's bugged, I think it's retardedly designed.
but it is not an error in the coding--which is what you are saying when you say it is bugged, that there is a glitch in the code.
Originally Posted by Raksha
I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think it's bugged, I think it's retardedly designed.
Sauying it is retarded is completely different--that means you don't like the way they designed it to work, not that it is bugged...simply you don't like the way it works. But it is in fact behaving as it was coded to do.
Originally Posted by Raksha
I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think it's bugged, I think it's retardedly designed.
Even in the original release we were told you could not extend your stay beyond 120 minutes with stones, so even though those links weren't direct quotes from SE and written from players' experiences--we WERE told by SE there was a limit to how much time could be requested. It is even mentioned in SE's play guide hosted on their servers:
Originally Posted by Raksha
Even if that were an official SE quote,... it still wouldn't make the system any less retarded.
Shortly after it's release, it was well documented that if you tried to extend your time past 120 minutes of added time you would loose the excess minutes on your stones,
It was retarded back then too, things don't become less retarded the older they are.



since there is a cap to how much time you can add from any method other than time from chests. This is not new info, and is not a bug--it was intentionally designed that way.
Originally Posted by Raksha
Yeah it's always been that way, but what we are saying is that it is RETARDED.

Expending a stone to give you +0 minutes is retarded design. If i'm down to 10 minutes, and I want to add stones back up to 120 minutes, that menu should allow me to.

As it is currently coded, that menu serves no purpose.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123936
<partial quote, as I dind't realize how long this is getting>

The menu, as it exists now, serves no purpose in-game.

If you go in with less than 120 minutes saved up, and 1 or more stones, you add stones to build up your time to 120 (or close to 120 if you don't want to go over). USING THE 'EXTEND TIME' MENU AFTER THIS POINT RESULTS IN WASTED STONES.

If you go in with less than 120 minutes saved up, and 0 stones, you set your remaning time and then you're done. YOU CAN'T USE THE 'EXTEND TIME' MENU UNDER THIS SCENARIO BECAUSE YOU HAVE 0 STONES.

the only potential use I see in this entire menu, is if you somehow don't add enough stones when you first get status, you can immediately add another stone to get up to 120 instead of having to zone out and back in. This almost never happens, and even if it did, you could just zone out and back in again, oh and If you get TEs that push you over 120 minutes, THE 'EXTEND TIME' MENU NO LONGER DOES YOU ANY GOOD.

So... for quite a while there, you WERE arguing against how the menu allows you to turn in stones and not get the full value because of the cap. At one point, you were even claiming that you could turn in stones and get 0 time from them. That was later proven not to be the case. This is somthing that went ont for several threads before this one, which you created as an extension of that debate.

When you STARTED this additional thread to continue debating it, you even opened up with this issue as part of that initial post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post128912

IF I CAN USE A FRAGMENT OF A TRAVERSER STONE TO EXTEND MY TIME, WHY CANT I USE AN ENTIRE STONE?

Yet, just a few lines later in that SAME POST, you claim that this is not part of your issue at all, but rather that you can't spend as many stones as you wnat regardless--and yet, you've KEPT coming back and complaining about how you can spend a stone and only get partial credit for it:

P.S. to people who think I'm whining about losing a stone, I'm not. I have over 400 stones and don't give a damn if I lose 15 minutes of one of them. What I am arguing is that I should be able to use a stone to extend my time while inside, NO MATTER HOW LONG IVE ALREADY BEEN INSIDE.

You seem to be bouncing back and forth over the issue of loosing full credit on a stone because of the cap. If it is not an issue for you...then why did you keep bringing it up in your arguments. You've accused me of using straw man arguments...I think it is more you who has been presenting the distracting arguments all along and caused the debate to evolve into something entirely different. All we (not just me, but others in the threads as well, and yet you keep attacking ME) have been trying to do is respond to the arguments presented by others. YOU have been the one that has shifted the arguments in the threads with your debate. I've just been trying to present the info as it relates to those arguments that YOU put forth.

BTW....the original issue was simple that someone was reporting a bug becuase they went back to add time after being in Abyssea for a while and they didn't get full credit for that stone because redeeming that stone exceeded the initial cap of 120 minutes and got truncated. Another player not very familiar with how it works tried to report it as a bug again, and after ONE POST detailing how it works, providing links the same source information to support it...it was closed as it was indeed shown not to be a bug:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-working-right

Thank you Cyrusskorrey for your report!

What you have described in your report has been determined to be not a bug, as also described in detail by RAIST. I can understand how the situation would be confusing though! This has been reported to the developers as well, so if any changes or updates are made to make this less confusing for others, they will be announced here on the forums and/or on www.PlayOnline.com.

Thanks again RAIST for your input and helping out others ^_^

SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR

This is what more or less SHOULD have happened where all this began, but YOU watned to shift it to go elswhere.

Your position over whether or not there should be a cap at all on obtaining time is a completely different issue, and should have never been combined in response to the OP of a thread that was stating it was a bug--one such thread was even in the Game Bugs section, and not General. It has confused the debate, causing multiple debates to take place, creating confusion, and essentially making us both look like @$$3$ in the end. THIS is what a strawman does.....

So, in the spirit of what you have claimed you would do and not respond to the strawmen anymore, I will say the same and actually back out of this debate. As you said, I haven't been presenting anything new. The reason is there is no other way to present it. The system works a certain way for a certain reason. It has been linked to lore and previous systems that were likely the foundation for how this system was designed--it has all been discussed in extensive detail. So there is really nothing more that can be presented to go against your strawman, so there really is nothing more to do but let the record stand.

[Raksha]

You have actually jumped around on issues concerning Visitant Status, and ultimately shifted it to a debate completely different from what it originally was.

You've stated that you 100% supported the notion that you should not be able to redeem a stone for partial credit because they've hit the cap.

Perhaps I should've said I 99% support this post. Anyway, you got me there. I'll be more careful with my replies from now on. The point I was trying to make is that it's retarded that the extend time menu doesn't work the way everyone thought it did the first time they used it.

In a previous thread, you more or less had the same message, and even called it a bug:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123252

This was debunked (not only by my post I might add) and it was shown NOT to be a bug (I have actually seena moderator respond to that effect). Then, a debate insued because you later start calling it retarded and arguing you never claimed it was a bug, when in fact you did twice in one post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123620

eventually you finally admit that you don't think it is a bug,

I spent that entire thread trying to correct your misunderstanding of my position. IN MY THIRD POST I said that I didn't think it was a bug, just that it was retardedly designed. Your failure to understand is what lead to the bickering in that entire thread which culminated in me clarifying my position so as to alleviate the confusion.

but then you start saying that it serves no purpose if it is not going to allow you to trade a stone and not get the full value of that stone:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123826

You're arguing things which i've already admitted that I was wrong about. This wasn't even my point to begin with, let me quote my first post:

If you go above 120 minutes, then down below 120 minutes, trying to add time will result in you getting 0 extra minutes. That's either seriously bugged, or a massively retarded design. I choose to give the devs the benefit of a doubt and say it's bugged.

Now ignoring the part about whether or not it is bugged, and whether or not it actually takes your stone (2 things i've addressed already) The point i've been making this entire time still remains undisputed, if you go above 120 minutes, then below 120 minutes, the extend time menu becomes totally useless.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post123936
<partial quote, as I dind't realize how long this is getting>


So... for quite a while there, you WERE arguing against how the menu allows you to turn in stones and not get the full value because of the cap. At one point, you were even claiming that you could turn in stones and get 0 time from them. That was later proven not to be the case. This is somthing that went ont for several threads before this one, which you created as an extension of that debate.

Yep I was wrong about the +0 time thing, I flat out admit it.

When you STARTED this additional thread to continue debating it, you even opened up with this issue as part of that initial post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post128912

Here I was responding to your nonsense lore argument. The only reason I brought it up was to point out how absurd your logic was. This isn't part of my argument, it was a response to yours.

Yet, just a few lines later in that SAME POST, you claim that this is not part of your issue at all, but rather that you can't spend as many stones as you wnat regardless

I was responding to ppl in the second thread who kept saying 'suck less' or 'stop whining because you lost a stone'. My point this whole time HAS BEEN that I should be able to extend my time, as long as i'm under 120 minutes, NO MATTER HOW LONG I'VE ALREADY BEEN INSIDE.

--and yet, you've KEPT coming back and complaining about how you can spend a stone and only get partial credit for it:

No I haven't. The only time i've come close to this is the +0 time thing, which was cleared up in the second thread. You keep harping on this.

You seem to be bouncing back and forth over the issue of loosing full credit on a stone because of the cap.

I said in the op of this thread that I don't care about losing a few minutes of a stone. i'm sorry if you were confused by this. I often 'waste' stones by capping my time to 120 because I have more than I know what to do with.

If it is not an issue for you...then why did you keep bringing it up in your arguments.

I don't. I havent used the '+0 time' argument since the 2nd thread.

You've accused me of using straw man arguments...I think it is more you who has been presenting the distracting arguments all along and caused the debate to evolve into something entirely different.

i've been arguing this whole time that the menu is retardedly designed and should be change to work the way everyone thinks it should work.

All we (not just me, but others in the threads as well, and yet you keep attacking ME) have been trying to do is respond to the arguments presented by others. YOU have been the one that has shifted the arguments in the threads with your debate.

The responders in this thread are either saying that i'm wasting my time arguing about it, since no one cares about this, or they are making your 'lore' argument. I've responded to their arguments with counterarguments, all the while reiterating my position that the menu is useless and needs to be changed.

I've just been trying to present the info as it relates to those arguments that YOU put forth.

So far all i've seen is you repeating the same 'learn to do math' or 'lore' or 'design aesthetics' arguments. You've offerend no gameplay arguments as to why the menu shouldn't be changed.

BTW....the original issue was simple that someone was reporting a bug becuase they went back to add time after being in Abyssea for a while and they didn't get full credit for that stone because redeeming that stone exceeded the initial cap of 120 minutes and got truncated. Another player not very familiar with how it works tried to report it as a bug again, and after ONE POST detailing how it works, providing links the same source information to support it...it was closed as it was indeed shown not to be a bug:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-working-right

I'm not arguing it was a bug, i'm arguing that it is useless.

This is what more or less SHOULD have happened where all this began, but YOU watned to shift it to go elswhere.

Yeah it kind of snowballed, if I could go back and clear up this confusion I would, but c'est la vie.

Your position over whether or not there should be a cap at all on obtaining time is a completely different issue, and should have never been combined in response to the OP of a thread that was stating it was a bug

I use the term 'bug' in a non-pedantic sense. Yes it caused confusion, and I've apologized and attempted to straighten it out, you keep harping on this though when I thought we'd moved on.

--one such thread was even in the Game Bugs section, and not General. It has confused the debate, causing multiple debates to take place, creating confusion, and essentially making us both look like @$$3$ in the end. THIS is what a strawman does.....

I didn't think It was worth making my own thread about, so I responded in the 'bug' thread. It got out of control from there.

So, in the spirit of what you have claimed you would do and not respond to the strawmen anymore, I will say the same and actually back out of this debate. As you said, I haven't been presenting anything new. The reason is there is no other way to present it. The system works a certain way for a certain reason. It has been linked to lore and previous systems that were likely the foundation for how this system was designed--it has all been discussed in extensive detail. So there is really nothing more that can be presented to go against your strawman, so there really is nothing more to do but let the record stand.

You've actually redeemed yourself in my eyes, you've pointed out mistakes that I've made that I didn't even realize, and shown me that I'm not a very good debater. I just wish we didn't have to go through this whole rigamarole to get to this point.

FWIW I apologize for being a dick.

/bro-hugs?