Wake up, "Seekers" is failing

[FrankReynolds]

I agree that it may not be the best approach for a dwindling playerbase, but we ARE just talking about three fights in an entire expansion. The fault doesn't lie with creating these particular fights, which are refreshingly challenging. The fault lies with SE for not introducing enough content at varying levels and playstyle, which they are apparently going to rectify in the next two patches according to their dev notes.

On Lakshmi right now there are at least 4 or 5 NA LS's working on Fracture Bosses and likely 5+ JP LS's as well (probably more on the JP end). Collectively, that's probably around 200-300+ players, which is not an insignificant percentage of the server population.

It's actually probably less than 180 (18*10=???) on a server with umm... I don't know. How many active players are there on lakshmi? On my server that wouldn't even be 10%. I'm pretty sure that lakshmi has a far higher number of players than cerberus.

Content that only ten percent of the population can enjoy doesn't sound like a formula for success to me. Do you think the new delve content will be easier to get into? I didn't get that impression from the notes. I got the impression that it would be more bosses. I'm guessing that having gear from the previous ones will be a requirement, if not due to the design itself then certainly from the LS that are doing them now.

I didn't mean social linkshells, I meant event linkshells. Your 99% number is supremely exaggerated. Even in Abyssea's heyday, there were many LS's who went in as an ally, broke up in groups, and farmed zones efficiently. I will agree that some shells likely disintegrated, and the overall number probably dipped shortly after RR/Minikin was released. But many survived and many sprang up anew from 2011-2013 as events such as Voidwatch, Legion, Odin v.2, and ADL popped up. From the way you recount history, people insta-dropped their pearls as soon as one or two single add-ons came out. But a lot of shells adapted and focused on the mobs that were actually somewhat challenging up until the third and final add-on + Shinryu. Voidwatch began shortly thereafter, and that began a stream of 18+ player events.

Of the 5 linkshells that I was in when abyssea started, all but one died within the first 2 months. The other died around when Voidwatch came out. Legion did not see a rise in large linkshells on my server.

We are talking about two different things. Three 45-minute fights versus nine zones full of NM's and quests. Obviously the new fights can be blazed through, but I just meant can't be dual-boxed.

I'm sure some people will disagree, but I'm pretty sure that dude killing glavoid is working just as hard as the 18 people in delve right now. I use the same WS, DT-, TP, stun, cure etc. macros when I'm in a party as I do when I'm alone. Do your buttons get harder to push when your in a group? because mine don't. Matter of fact, I imagine that DDIng and curing at the same time is probably more challenging than following the group around and doing what you're told (actually I know so because I've done both for years).

[detlef]

Honestly, I'm really digging Adoulin right now. But that's because I'm fortunate to have a linkshell that's capable of tackling Delve mega bosses. If we weren't constantly working toward that goal, I think I would be incredibly bored with the game at this time. I feel bad for a lot of people who are disheartened with the game right now and it's clear that SE needs to act quickly and decisively or lose those players.

[Demon6324236]

I'm sure some people will disagree, but I'm pretty sure that dude killing glavoid is working just as hard as the 18 people in delve right now. I use the same WS, DT-, TP, stun, cure etc. macros when I'm in a party as I do when I'm alone. Do your buttons get harder to push when your in a group? because mine don't. Matter of fact, I imagine that DDIng and curing at the same time is probably more challenging than following the group around and doing what you're told (actually I know so because I've done both for years).

Your right, the difference is the time it takes. You get your Delve weapon done in how much time? 30k Plasm, say you do slightly below average runs, that's 5k to me, so 6 runs, 45 minutes a run not counting down time, that's 4.5 hours of work. Not counting Glavoid down time, meaning restoneing, atma, buffs, all that good stuff, just the time farming things, between the pop items for the NMs and the total of, I think, 6 NMs needed to fight Glavoid, I would say Glavoid takes probably 45 minutes just to build 6 or so pops. After that comes killing, which takes some time too. All in all I think the same amount of time you spend doing 2 Plasm runs on the inside is the same amount of time a person spends on Glavoid making and killing 1 parties worth of pops. So they are now roughly 1/5th done, while your 1/3rd done, and at the same time, your weapon is much stronger, and theirs is only getting the base stage, level 75, no WS, no base stats, no worth, just a special look. If you count in the 85 stage, they have 1/10th, if you count in 90 stages, that's 10/175th, so overall progress so far as Glavoid goes, yes, I think Glavoid is harder than Plasm farming, and takes more time/effort to do, as such, it is deserving of a more powerful reward. Now, do Delve weapons deserve better upgrades for each Airlixir? I think so, but, I think Plates and Dross or Cinder take more time and effort than Airlixirs, their distribution is more concentrated, and their prices on the player market are quite a bit higher in overall amounts I believe. As such, a 99 Emp should be stronger than a Delve weapon I believe.

I have given you nothing but math facts based on times I have experienced as well as prices I have witnessed recently, I think I have made my point.

[Tamoa]

The disconnect isn't between the good and bad players, it's between douchebags and the not good enough to play with douchebags, then there's the good enough but unwilling to play with douchebags.

This, so very much. I agree with everything you said in that post, but the quoted part stood out the most to me. I do not want to line douchebags' pockets with millions of my gil for a boss win. And I do not want to be forced to play with people I dislike intensely to be able to do Delve.

[Karah]

I honestly think that's what has become the biggest problem. The people, (that's what it always comes down to isn't it). ((( well the failure of SoA is the cause of the biggest problem, driving people away)))

The community used to be big enough that if you hated someone, you could tell them, "hey you're a prick" and never have to do anything with them, ever.

Now, if you loathe someone, they're in every event... cause let's face it, there's only 100 people playing, and guess what, your option is to put up with them, or not do it.

It sucks, I've seen so many people give up their integrity for shinies. Sell-outs, pretty much yup.

It's just the same people over and over and over and over Ad nauseam.

That and half of each server either doesn't (yes they do) speak your language, or doesn't want to play with you even if they did.

The JP/EN within the same server has always been a crutch to both sides, I cannot honestly believe there was never made a single server strictly for English speaking/Japanese speaking players.

[Mahoro]

It's actually probably less than 180 (18*10=???) on a server with umm... I don't know. How many active players are there on lakshmi? On my server that wouldn't even be 10%. I'm pretty sure that lakshmi has a far higher number of players than cerberus.

You use 18 in your calculation above, but that is the bare minimum of what the event requires. Most large LS's have to recruit more than 18 players to run events because they have to allow for people's schedules and RL. (e.g., the large LS I co-lead has 35+ active members.) You can't just recruit 18 and count on those 18 to be online and at every event. That's why I surmised 200-300 in my prior post. Of course, the number of players who intend to gather people and form new groups likely pushes the number far above 300.

Content that only ten percent of the population can enjoy doesn't sound like a formula for success to me. Do you think the new delve content will be easier to get into? I didn't get that impression from the notes. I got the impression that it would be more bosses. I'm guessing that having gear from the previous ones will be a requirement, if not due to the design itself then certainly from the LS that are doing them now.

You are conflating two statistics. You say only 10% can "enjoy" the content, but you are using that figure to describe the percentage of people who can currently clear it. But the percentage of people who have access to the content and are interested in it is far greater than 10%. I've even seen PUGs form for these fights. As time passes, more groups will form and more people will be successful. But even if only 25% of the server population ultimately clear it, there wouldn't particularly be anything wrong with that. The content level was specifically set high by the devs. It is challenging content with commensurate rewards. However, Matsui has said more content will be coming in between content levels, with rewards designed to increase a player's performance for higher content levels.

Of the 5 linkshells that I was in when abyssea started, all but one died within the first 2 months. The other died around when Voidwatch came out. Legion did not see a rise in large linkshells on my server.

I'm sorry to hear that. 2 months seems quite premature because Visions was released in June 2010 and Scars with its overpowered Atma didn't follow till September 2010 >< Some LS leaders were shortsighted and couldn't adapt ;; I find it disturbing that one died when Voidwatch came out, as that event was tailor-made for large groups.

I'm sure some people will disagree, but I'm pretty sure that dude killing glavoid is working just as hard as the 18 people in delve right now. I use the same WS, DT-, TP, stun, cure etc. macros when I'm in a party as I do when I'm alone. Do your buttons get harder to push when your in a group? because mine don't. Matter of fact, I imagine that DDIng and curing at the same time is probably more challenging than following the group around and doing what you're told (actually I know so because I've done both for years).

I agree with your analysis but since this was never my point I'm afraid I have to deem it a strawman. Obviously, someone in a Delve Fracture boss group is not doing wholly unique things in the game. They aren't saying "woo, I'm pressing these buttons in a new and special way!" The difficulty comes in the timing and coordination with other people, and the enjoyment comes in that interaction. A lot of people were frustrated when the game splintered off and became a series of dual-boxers quietly farming on their own. For better or for worse, the trend of the game moved back toward community. That was what I meant in my post above, not that the Delve players are working harder than the Glavoid players on an individual basis.

[FrankReynolds]

You use 18 in your calculation above, but that is the bare minimum of what the event requires. Most large LS's have to recruit more than 18 players to run events because they have to allow for people's schedules and RL. (e.g., the large LS I co-lead has 35+ active members.) You can't just recruit 18 and count on those 18 to be online and at every event. That's why I surmised 200-300 in my prior post. Of course, the number of players who intend to gather people and form new groups likely pushes the number far above 300.

No they don't. Most LS just don't take people who aren't on their schedule. Why would they? The shells doing delve bosses on my server may be even smaller. I see them shouting for 99 R/E bards every once in a while. And I'm pretty sure that even at 200-300, that is still far less than 10% on your server, but ffxiah has been known to be inaccurate on this.

Technically, everyone has access and can "enjoy" the content,

Technically, anyone in america can be an astronaut or the president if they just put their minds to it...

People don't want to pay $30 to play content 1 year from now... maybe... if they actually make appropriate changes. And,why is it okay to spend all our money developing things for people that don't like us and won't let us play with them again?

I'm sorry to hear that. 2 months seems quite premature because Visions was released in June 2010 and Scars with its overpowered Atma didn't follow till September 2010 >< Some LS leaders were shortsighted and couldn't adapt ;; I find it disturbing that one died when Voidwatch came out, as that event was tailor-made for large groups.

It was tailored for large groups. Fortunately there was no reason that it had to be the same group every time. There was no need for linkshells to control loot distribution. Therefor no need for a linkshell.

I agree with your analysis but since this was never my point I'm afraid I have to deem it a strawman. Obviously, someone in a Delve Fracture boss group is not doing wholly unique things in the game. They aren't saying "woo, I'm pressing these buttons in a new and special way!" The difficulty comes in the timing and coordination with other people, and the enjoyment comes in that interaction. A lot of people were frustrated when the game splintered off and became a series of dual-boxers quietly farming on their own. For better or for worse, the trend of the game moved back toward community. That was what I meant in my post above, not that the Delve players are working harder than the Glavoid players on an individual basis.

Did the game move toward community? Because it seems like it didn't and that is what led to this conversation. Being able to do things friends and cooperate interact and coordinate is fun and exciting. I agree. But that is not what is happening at all for most people. A large portion of this game's players simply cannot do that. Others just don't want to. It is (believe it or not) possible to make content that can be enjoyed both in small or in large groups without forcing people to join linkshells and schedule their time around them.

Voidwatch was a good example of that. The problem there was that RME weapons were too far apart from the easily obtained options in terms of damage so people who formed groups excluded people who did not have them. It was no where near as bad as this, but still bad enough to screw some people out of regular participation.

[Mahoro]

No they don't. Most LS just don't take people who aren't on their schedule. Why would they? The shells doing delve bosses on my server may be even smaller. I see them shouting for 99 R/E bards every once in a while. And I'm pretty sure that even at 200-300, that is still far less than 10% on your server, but ffxiah has been known to be inaccurate on this.

The schedule thing you are discussing here sounds like you are raising an EU vs. NA vs. JP thing. Some people in certain time zones have always had difficulty getting groups for large-scale content. The game has always had those issues, and they are not endemic to Adoulin.

People don't want to pay $30 to play content 1 year from now... maybe... if they actually make appropriate changes. And,why is it okay to spend all our money developing things for people that don't like us and won't let us play with them again?

Delve Fracture bosses are just one event in an entire expansion. They are content level 20. Additional content is being added per the devs notes, as I've noted above exhaustively. The question of whether someone got their $30 worth in an expansion is very much an individual one, but one event can and should not be the dispositive factor.

It was tailored for large groups. Fortunately there was no reason that it had to be the same group every time. There was no need for linkshells to control loot distribution. Therefor no need for a linkshell.

There was no need to control loot distribution, but I know some multi-event shells that tackled it nevertheless, mine included. The content was also not embraced by PUGs at the outset. By the time it became popular in PUGs, additional 18-man events were introduced. Moreover, the extremely low drop rates ensured that people could enjoy these events in both PUG and LS event settings, because even spamming a mob off-hours in shout groups did not always result in 100% of a player's gear goals.

Did the game move toward community? Because it seems like it didn't and that is what led to this conversation. Being able to do things friends and cooperate interact and coordinate is fun and exciting. I agree. But that is not what is happening at all for most people. A large portion of this game's players simply cannot do that. Others just don't want to. It is (believe it or not) possible to make content that can be enjoyed both in small or in large groups without forcing people to join linkshells and schedule their time around them.

You're right. See above comment how Fracture bosses are only one event out of an entire expansion, and additional content is forthcoming for smaller groups. There is content in Adoulin right now for those small groups, but the issue has been identified by Matsui.

[FrankReynolds]

The schedule thing you are discussing here sounds like you are raising an EU vs. NA vs. JP thing. Some people in certain time zones have always had difficulty getting groups for large-scale content. The game has always had those issues, and they are not endemic to Adoulin.

What causes the problem doesn't matter. Only that the problem exists. Talking in circles about how people could adjust their schedule, tastes or life to the game won't make it happen. You have to make content available to the people. They will not make themselves available to the content. They will go where content fits their needs. This is not what anyone concerned with the future of this game should be excited about.

Delve Fracture bosses are just one event in an entire expansion. They are content level 20. Additional content is being added per the devs notes, as I've noted above exhaustively. The question of whether someone got their $30 worth in an expansion is very much an individual one, but one event can and should not be the dispositive factor.

Yes it should. Rewards bring people in. according to your reasoning, people should still be spamming campaign and garrison etc. because it's still content right? That's where this is going. everything but delve is relatively worthless. You keep quoting dev notes, but they haven't happened and there are thousands of things on these forums that have been promised and not delivered.

There was no need to control loot distribution, but I know some multi-event shells that tackled it nevertheless, mine included. The content was also not embraced by PUGs at the outset. By the time it became popular in PUGs, additional 18-man events were introduced.

You are confusing your experiences with everyone else. People haven't had your experiences. If they had, these forums would look very different.

You're right. See above comment how Fracture bosses are only one event out of an entire expansion, and additional content is forthcoming for smaller groups. There is content in Adoulin right now for those small groups, but the issue has been identified by Matsui.

Do you do those smaller events? I'm guessing that you don't because the rewards are crap. Why should other people do it?

[Oddwaffle]

@Mahoro: Umm... Delve isn't the only content in SOA, it's just that nobody cares about the other contents: Reive and Skirmish. Why? Cause Delve is easy to do and gives the best rewards. Yeah, sure there will be additional content but would anyone be doing those additional content or will they just be like current 'forgotten' content? These additional content will give less power rewards than Delve, that's a bad sign. If they take longer, luck based and require more work than Delve then I'm sure I won't be doing them unless I don't have anything else to do (like skirmish).

The way SOA structured is to favor large LS and ignores the low-man and solo players. Even the update will still put low-man and solo players to 2nd class. It's not just the stat on the equipment, it will be the perception of the players too. People used to ask for REM weapons even though some magian weapons are on-par or close to REM weapons. This is because SE created 2nd class stuff so people think it's not as good as the top class.

The new content for low-man and soloers MUST give similar if not the same reward as current Delve. People need something they can work towards. You can't just introduce something and tell people 'that's the best, do it'. You need alternatives. You need substitutes. You need side-grade items. This is to make sure that everyone can enjoy what they like without being crippled with 2nd rate equipments and ridiculed cause they don't like working in an alliance.