General DD Gear?

Thinkin about takin up WAR and was wonderin if this would be a good setup.

Main: Kunlun +2 (Attack 2-4x)
Sub: Pole Grip
Ammo: Ravager's Orb
Head: Zelus Tiara
Neck: Ravager's Gorget
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Ravager's Earring
Body: Grim Cuirass
Hands: Dusk Gloves +1
Ring1: Blitz Ring
Ring2: Keen Ring
Back: Atheling Mantle
Waist: Bullwhip Belt
Legs: Calmecac Trousers
Feet: Ravager's Calligae +1

And if I'm to understand correctly, Raging Rush is best WS inside Abyssea, but outside it's King's Justice, right?

Don't really know about the gear, but I'm fairly certain before abyssea came out Raging Rush outperformed King's Justice as long as you geared well enough to get a decent crit rate.

Even if you didn't gear for critical hit rate, Raging Rush was generally better. It had a higher deviation from the average (which is normal for crit rate WS), but overall damage was generally higher. WS ranking for WAR was as follows (before Ukko's Fury):

300% MS+WC: Steel Cyclone
< 300% MS: King's Justice
No MS: Raging Rush
Self SC: Raging Rush > Raging Rush
300% MS self SC: King's Justice > Steel Cyclone (probably only worth it with Savagery Merits and Warcry)

The last example was very fun and useful before Blood Rage came out. Hit Meditate and 300% Sekka King's Justice would put you at ~218%, then a tick of Meditate, 230%, another swing of yours 246%. This was already enough to have technically 296% TP (Savagery), often you'd get another Meditate tick or hit from enemy, so you'd be capped. Then Warrior's Charge and Steel Cyclone. That meant you could profit from the high damage of Steel Cyclone to close a T2 WS for pretty high SC damage as well. Highest combination I did got me a total of over 8k damage, which was quite huge back then. Could see large chunks of a boss's HP bar disappear, while the other melees were chipping away at it slowly. But as I said, I don't know if it's still worth it, given that Blood Rage increases critical damage by 20% flat. Also, note that Kunlun +2 has very low base damage, which means Steel Cyclones would be less impressive anyway. For that it's probably better to just spam WS instead of focusing on great WS combos.

The gear isn't bad, but can be improved in certain slots, mainly for Ravager's gear. Do you have Tamas/Sattva? Rajas is still exceptional for DDing (Store TP +5), and the other two are hardly worth it anymore. Unless you have a sentimental attachment to those, might wanna consider redoing that.

Note that with a Kunlun +2, you can attain a 5-hit setup without any noticeable sacrifices, if you gear for it. Check this out. Also, you can substitute the White Tathlum for a Ravager's Orb and Ravager's Earring for a Moonshade Earring, with a Regain augment. That way you'd get 99% TP after 5 hits (including WS, assuming one single hit), and the Moonshade Earring would give you that extra % TP you need almost instantly. It's fun to note that with this setup, you could almost perma-WS on WAR, if the 4-hit procs repeatedly, and thus also perma-SC.

don't use the oa2-4 weapon (bad distribution, cant have weapon ao X and DA/TA in same round, low dmg)
replace blitz with something else: 8(zelus)+4(gloves)+7(belt)+3(legs)+4(feet)=26= caped and the ring goes to waste

lack storeTP gear. cant say how many since i don't know what weapon you have (not the oa2-4!)

body+1/2,rajas,hoard, tactical mantle, goading (only use what is needed to lower you hit build)

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Originally Posted by hiko

don't use the oa2-4 weapon (bad distribution, cant have weapon ao X and DA/TA in same round, low dmg)

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I don't know about the distribution, but to my knowledge higher hit rounds will proc before lower hit. So the native DA WAR has won't hurt the weapon much, although there will be a bit lower rewards. The low damage could be a problem though, and I'm not sure if it would beat other Great Axes, but he seems to have put some effort into obtaining it already. It doesn't look too bad on paper. Can OAX weapons multihit proc on weapon skills?

Pretty sure they can't. Unless it's one of those things that use charged ammunition.

The tests so far have shown OA2-4 weapons to have an average hits/round of 2, which means Double Attack does nothing for it. OA2-4 GAxe and Axes on Warrior are the worst Magian weapons.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Can OAX weapons multihit proc on weapon skills?

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Soboro couldn't, but then, martial weapons had no effect in off-hand and the magian TP bonus weapons do, so there's always the chance. I'm 95% certain that my OA2-3 dagger (haven't finished it yet) doesn't proc on ws.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

The tests so far have shown OA2-4 weapons to have an average hits/round of 2, which means Double Attack does nothing for it. OA2-4 GAxe and Axes on Warrior are the worst Magian weapons.

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Not entirely true. Though to prove the point entirely we'd have to parse the number of additional attacks by a job with no DA trait or gear VS a war, both using OAX weapons. The results will show that the war still got more additional attacks (assuming that Arcon is correct about the highest number of attacks procing first, which I think he is)[Just looked at the Ridill page though and that seems to think DA overrides additional swings from the weapon]. It's impossible to say exactly how much without seeing the % of 2, % of 3 and % of 4 hits, but you will still get 10% DA activation on all of your single-hit attacks. If only 10% of the attacks are single-hit, you get a whopping 1% increase in swings through DA, but if 50% of the swings are single-hit, you get an additional 5% swings.

You will lose some of your DA usefulness, but not completely. Hence why Ridill WAR was such a popular choice.

Riddill had high base damage and fairly low delay for its level and a favourable OaX effect, the 2-4 Kunlun doesn't, you can't compare the two. It's a bad weapon and you should feel bad for using it for anything other than being /Dnc or something, and you're still probably better off with other options.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ridill was popular mostly due to the 2h patch not being implemented yet and /Sam not being very useful, after the update Ridill wasn't as highly prized as it used to be.

He's not correct about the highest number proccing first. It's Triple Attack -> Double Attack -> Occasionally Attacks of all varieties. If anything, Occasionally Attacks procs in order of lowest to highest (thus explaining the decreasing probability of higher N-hits observed in most distributions).

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Originally Posted by Byrth

He's not correct about the highest number proccing first. It's Triple Attack -> Double Attack -> Occasionally Attacks of all varieties. If anything, Occasionally Attacks procs in order of lowest to highest (thus explaining the decreasing probability of higher N-hits observed in most distributions).

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For buffs, it does actually go from higher to lower (and that's including traits, Atma and gear). Even Quadruple Attack from Twilight Knife will proc before Triple Attack, before Double Attack. OAX weapons are just different, apparently.

It hasn't actually been shown that Quadruple Attack procs before Triple and Double, but we assume it to be true. Yeah, OAX weapons are different in kind of the worst way possible. D:

Thanks for all the replies!

I mainly played PLD and MNK, so forgot about the Store TP and 5/6 hitter combos. Re adjusted the equip a little to accomodate that, tell me what u all think!

Main: Kunlun +2 (Occasionally Attack 2-4x Great Axe)
Sub: Rose Strap
Ammo: White Tathlum
Head: Zelus Tiara
Neck: Chivalrous Chain
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Moonshade Earring (ACC 4/Regain)
Body: Ravager's Lorica +2
Hands: Ravager's Mufflers +2
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Hoard Ring
Back: Tactical Mantle
Waist: Goading Belt
Legs: Ravager's Cuisses +2
Feet: Ravager's Calligae +2
Food: Carbonara (Store TP 6 for 5 hit)

You're still using one of the worst weapons available to us. Compare it to the 8 DA (D118) GAxe, for instance, because they have the same delay:

D55, 2 Attacks per round (12.85 DPS) with your gear and no Atma
vs.
D118, 1.33 Attacks per round (18.32 DPS, +42%) with your gear and no Atma

TP gain is higher with the OA2-4, but TP overflow is a serious issue too, so it doesn't come anywhere close to the +50% WS frequency you'd predict.


Also, what kind of X-hit are you going for? It looks to me like you're just throwing STP everywhere while using one of the highest delay GAs in the game. 14 TP/hit base, 5-hit requires about 43 STP. You have ~59 including /SAM. Leave Tactical Mantle in your safe, switch food to Red Curry Buns, change neck to Ravager's Gorget and you can do whatever you want in your WS gear safely. If you don't need the extra STP, switch White Tathlum to Ravager's Orb.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

You're still using one of the worst weapons available to us. Compare it to the 8 DA (D118) GAxe, for instance, because they have the same delay:

D55, 2 Attacks per round (12.85 DPS) with your gear and no Atma
vs.
D118, 1.33 Attacks per round (18.32 DPS, +42%) with your gear and no Atma

TP gain is higher with the OA2-4, but TP overflow is a serious issue too, so it doesn't come anywhere close to the +50% WS frequency you'd predict.


Also, what kind of X-hit are you going for? It looks to me like you're just throwing STP everywhere while using one of the highest delay GAs in the game. 14 TP/hit base, 5-hit requires about 43 STP. You have ~59 including /SAM. Leave Tactical Mantle in your safe, switch food to Red Curry Buns, change neck to Ravager's Gorget and you can do whatever you want in your WS gear safely. If you don't need the extra STP, switch White Tathlum to Ravager's Orb.

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I was /tossing on all that STP is cuz I planned to go /NIN. The Carbonara is needed to obtain 43 STP. I didn't do much endgame content pre-Abyssea, so I'm jus operating under the general assumption that all DD's should sub NIN for extra protection from AOE physicals and single tier nukes.

I don't know the dynamics of endgame outside of Abyssea, cept for Sky since i did the Gods (cept Kirin) regularly as PLD. Is WAR/SAM not an issue for the healer?

It is my general experience that situations where WAR/SAM is an issue because of healing, WAR/NIN is also an issue. No useful passive defenses and PDT/MDT only gets you so far. Shadows aren't so much better than Seigan/Third Eye that they make the difference in most situations.

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Originally Posted by Linh

90 MNK. 90 BLM. 90 COR.

All POST-Abyssea LEECHED and proud of it.

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Doesn't even mention WAR. Is the sig old, or do you not even have war 90 yet? Or did you have war pre-abyssea so left it out of that sig?

If you want to be completely optimal:

Subjob: Samurai (No point in ever going NIN, if you're dying in abyssea its because you don't know how to use seigan and third eye)
Atma: Razed Ruins/Sanguine Scythe/Apocalypse
Main: Ukonvasara
Sub: Claymore Grip
Ranged: none
Ammo: Ravager's Orb
Head: Zelus Tiara
Neck: Ravager's Gorget
Ear1: Ravager's Earring
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body: Armada Hauberk(ONLY WITH STP+5~6, DA+2, ELSE: USE ASKAR, or AF3+2)
Hands: Ravager's Mufflers +2(Or Perle Hands with restraint down)
Ring1: Blitz (Keen ring or demonry ring with perle hands restraint down)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Atheling
Waist: Goading
Legs: Ravager's Cuisses +2
Feet: Ravager's Calligae +2
Food: Red Curry Bun /+1

The math is out there to show that there is absolutely nothing better than this in terms of overall damage output. This will and DOES out perform everything else in the game, including SAM, including BLM, including EVERYTHING.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

If you want to be completely optimal [..]

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Inside Abyssea.... arguably. Define "out there" please (and a link, if you happen to have it handy).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

If you want to be completely optimal:

Subjob: Samurai (No point in ever going NIN, if you're dying in abyssea its because you don't know how to use seigan and third eye)
Atma: Razed Ruins/Sanguine Scythe/Apocalypse
Main: Ukonvasara
Sub: Claymore Grip
Ranged: none
Ammo: Ravager's Orb
Head: Zelus Tiara
Neck: Ravager's Gorget
Ear1: Ravager's Earring
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body: Armada Hauberk(ONLY WITH STP+5~6, DA+2, ELSE: USE ASKAR, or AF3+2)
Hands: Ravager's Mufflers +2(Or Perle Hands with restraint down)
Ring1: Blitz (Keen ring or demonry ring with perle hands restraint down)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Atheling
Waist: Goading
Legs: Ravager's Cuisses +2
Feet: Ravager's Calligae +2
Food: Red Curry Bun /+1

The math is out there to show that there is absolutely nothing better than this in terms of overall damage output. This will and DOES out perform everything else in the game, including SAM, including BLM, including EVERYTHING.

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this is correct i use Maschu +2 and the same gear my ukko's range from 3000-8000. though i change my grip out inside / outside of abyssea. * pole strap for 2% DA*
just to explain thats a 6 hit 26% haste Ukon and a 5 Hit after Ws Maschu+2 Set. with about 30% DA before atmas come into play.

Also, about /NIN, as people have stated before, it's not really much safer than /SAM. The only exception are high-tier single-target nukes. Even at Colibri camp it was fun to see their Pecking Flurry go to waste completely, something that never happened with /NIN. I used /SAM at 75 for almost everything, every regular event or NM, only special cases saw exceptions to that.

Here's how i tank atm on war * this works on everything but Voidwalker tier 4 NM's*. By tank i mean anytime im on war/sam and thats to simply deal more dmg then im taking works every time.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Inside Abyssea.... arguably. Define "out there" please (and a link, if you happen to have it handy).

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http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...kos-fury-setup

Testing has been done here.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...kos-fury-setup

Testing has been done here.

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Well don't see much testing there per se, but I agree with this set in general. Although it's still focussed on Abyssea (Claymore Grip for example). I think investing too much in a 5-hit is a mistake, at least for an Ukon. Widowmaker on the other hand barely has any sacrifices to attain a 5-hit (only Rose Strap instead of Pole Grip, Ravager's Orb isn't that great in the first place), so it would be more feasible.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Well don't see much testing there per se, but I agree with this set in general. Although it's still focussed on Abyssea (Claymore Grip for example). I think investing too much in a 5-hit is a mistake, at least for an Ukon. Widowmaker on the other hand barely has any sacrifices to attain a 5-hit (only Rose Strap instead of Pole Grip, Ravager's Orb isn't that great in the first place), so it would be more feasible.

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Testing starts on page 7ish for the new atma combonation RR/SS/Apoc

Yeah inside abyssea. Outside just use Pole Grip, 5hit has never been good outside anyway.