[dev1017] Make Cover a Job Trait?

I previously posted this idea in a thread in the Paladin job forum, but in light of the impending job refinements I feel this perhaps deserves its own thread, and that it may get some more attention here than in the Paladin forum. Forgive me if I've erred in the placement of this thread. Anyway...

Instead of adjusting it as a job ability, why not make Cover a job trait? I see this as a simple way to make Paladin much more useful, or at the very least less of a waste of space.

Due to the lack of information as to the planned adjustment to Cover, I'm going to use how it currently functions for the purposes of my argument.

Cover's base duration is fifteen seconds. Unless whatever you're fighting is using an ability like Hundred Fists, or has exceptionally low delay, this results in at best a couple attacks being blocked. Most of the gear enhancing Cover becomes worthless as well, because it's very difficult to time the ability to coincide with blocking a spell or what have you.

In a perfect world, Paladins would always be the focus of the enemy's attention anyway, which makes Cover very situational. As a result, meriting the duration up seems like a waste when you can shorten the recast timers of abilities like Sentinel, Rampart, and Shield Bash, all of which are much more practical. Cover's apparent uselessness not only affects the ability itself, but essentially wastes space in our group one merit category, where a better effect might take its place.

And so, I propose the following changes: Make Cover a perpetual job trait, and change the group one merit as follows; decreases damage taken while covering an ally. Base of -6% damage taken at level 1, increasing by 1% per level to a maximum of -10% damage taken at level 5. (Whether or not this damage reduction would apply to the overall damage reduction cap of 50% or not is up to your discretion, but I feel it should be an exception to that cap in much the same way that Burtgang and Aegis bypass it.)

I feel this accomplishes several things, ultimately making Paladin marginally more useful. It would render Paladin's inability to quickly generate enmity and maintain the enemy's attention a moot point. It has no impact on Paladin's (positive or negative) offensive capabilities, nor would it affect its ability to solo. It negates the necessitation of a complete overhaul of the enmity system, makes some old equipment much more useful, and adds more variety to Paladin's group one merits.

On the whole, I feel this is a fairly simple, eloquent way to significantly enhance Paladin's usefulness, allowing it to shine a little brighter as the impenetrable wall I feel it is meant to be, without any drastic changes to the job or the game.

Edit: Grammar errors.

I don't know if this would work to be "always on" since it might need a target (?) -- can we just have equal recast/duration, like a handful of other abilities? It could still be longer, like 5min (or more) ... and you could choose to keep it active fulltime, if you wanted.

But this would also allow you to kinda turn it on/off at will. I remember Cecil! He did it until you told him to stop! :D

I was thinking Knight in FFIII style blocking, because targeting one person means you won't be covering anyone else if that person loses hate or dies. It also keeps you from being useless on things that spam Amnesia or otherwise prevent you from using JAs.

Job trait: cover
I like it. To add to it though, you can have it activate as soon as the person with hate stands behind the paladin, the paladin will go into a lock down mode. It's defense increases but you are unable to act. If you need to act, simply move out of the formation. So you have an active cover at the ready, with the balance of a somewhat silence and amnesia effect. There also be a cool little stance in which the paladin takes :P

I personally think this is a great idea. PLD definitely needs some kind of change.

PLD is a great tank as in they take very little damage, but the problem is them getting and keeping hate. They just can't build hate as fast as the damage dealers can these days.

PLD is a great tank job but they need some more tools to make sure they are the ones taking the damage. Cover as a job trait would do this nicely. If not that perhaps some more hate tools.

SE please listen up and make some changes to PLD, they are in need of some REAL adjustments so they can be more useful.

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Originally Posted by Setto

I personally think this is a great idea. PLD definitely needs some kind of change.

PLD is a great tank as in they take very little damage, but the problem is them getting and keeping hate. They just can't build hate as fast as the damage dealers can these days.

PLD is a great tank job but they need some more tools to make sure they are the ones taking the damage. Cover as a job trait would do this nicely. If not that perhaps some more hate tools.

SE please listen up and make some changes to PLD, they are in need of some REAL adjustments so they can be more useful.

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you right pld need change. They do have problems keeping hate too, but even with this parties just don't have a reason to invite them. They have probably the worst, or close to it, dd in the game atm, which usually would be fine, but not with the capping hate within seconds and even if pld could there still are no reason to invite them over another job.

As far as the idea of a cover job trait is concern it sound good on paper but just wouldn't work and still people wouldn't want pld over anything because a dd can just be cured bomb anyway. It wouldn't work because what if there more then 1 pld in the group? or what if there was 10? would dmg just not be taken by anyone in the party or would it just be spit between pld? Also considering you lose enmity by taking dmg and dd already can hold the hate cap easy enough, it just wouldn't be practical.

Like you mention though the JA should have a lower recast time, look at shield bash for example, it does it every 5 mins (less with merits) does between 20-50 dmg (more if you have something like a Aegis) and doesn't always stun. This this should be reduced to a 1-2 min recast timer and less if merited. sentinel and rampart maybe push those down to 3 mins. Divine Emblem reduce that down to 5 mins to start.

Still won't get us invited to parties though, there no reason for a "tank" when you got dd that can survive enough to be cured bomb.

There's a game outside Abyssea where MP is finite and some of the new Voidwatch NMs have clearly been to the gym. Obviously not everything needs PLD's unique level of survivability, but not everything should, because then you've created the opposite problem. Not everything should be dependant on one job (tanking, healing, whatever), just like like one job shouldn't be useless at everything.

I agree that most of Paladin's ability timers (Divine Emblem's timer can only really be described as a joke) need to be retooled in the face of abilities like Counterstance and Third Eye. However, I feel that, in the interim, making Cover a job trait would be a good stop gap. It's the only ability that has always been essentially worthless, and it's the one thing I think can be adjusted without everyone screaming OMG BROKEN. While I don't think Paladin's offense is the worst in the game, I do think that any buff to it would be stepping on the toes of jobs like SAM, MNK and WAR, and pulls Paladin out of the role SE has been trying to carve out for it.

Making Cover a job trait won't necessarily make Paladin more desirable, but it would undeniably make it more useful, and it certainly wouldn't make it any less desirable.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

There's a game outside Abyssea where MP is finite and some of the new Voidwatch NMs have clearly been to the gym. Obviously not everything needs PLD's unique level of survivability, but not everything should, because then you've created the opposite problem. Not everything should be dependant on one job (tanking, healing, whatever), just like like one job shouldn't be useless at everything.

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You right there is stuff outside aby (thankfully) but still usually a mnk, nin or thf is all that is needed for most of it too, pld may have 1 maybe 2 of the new voidwatch NMs that make them desire again, but it still limited.
How would making cover a JT be any ore worth it, pld still won't be able to keep hate, and if a evasion tank or a mnk with counter and a ton of hp can do it well enough to be cured bombed? (and this is for in and outside aby)

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Originally Posted by Lazus

You right there is stuff outside aby (thankfully) but still usually a mnk, nin or thf is all that is needed for most of it too, pld may have 1 maybe 2 of the new voidwatch NMs that make them desire again, but it still limited.
How would making cover a JT be any ore worth it, pld still won't be able to keep hate, and if a evasion tank or a mnk with counter and a ton of hp can do it well enough to be cured bombed? (and this is for in and outside aby)

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You don't need to have the enemy's attention for Cover to work. You stand in front of everyone else and then regardless of who has the enemy's, you block the damage. Making it a job trait would just mean you can do this all the time, which would allow Paladin to be the shield SE seems to want it to be, despite its inability to draw the enemy's attention away from its allies.

Inside Abyssea, where you drown in MP and have enough HP to survive anything, it wouldn't necessarily matter (but it wouldn't make Paladin any less desirable than it already is). Outside, where you don't have 30MP/tic refresh and 4000 HP, an unlucky string of counters is all it takes for a MNK to die, and you can't cure bomb people forever. From my experience, the new Dynamis NMs and some of the later-stage Voidwatch NMs have impeccable accuracy against everyone, evasion sets or not. Currently, Paladin is no use here because it can't hold hate over anyone, but with a perpetual Cover effect that wouldn't matter. It could absorb the damage while still letting DD jobs do their thing.

Making Cover a job trait impedes no one, and makes Paladin, at the very least, situationally useful, which is several steps above "pretending to be useful IF you have Ochain and Almace", where it sits now.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

You don't need to have the enemy's attention for Cover to work. You stand in front of everyone else and then regardless of who has the enemy's, you block the damage. Making it a job trait would just mean you can do this all the time, which would allow Paladin to be the shield SE seems to want it to be, despite its inability to draw the enemy's attention away from its allies.

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But cover as it works now you still lost more enmity from covering someone then you would if you threw a Cure IV on them instead and as I can see it be the same if it was a JT with this idea. And with it like it is now it near useless, this JT won't be enough of a improvement with how the OP describe it. It is a interesting idea, but would need adjustment, for example have decrease enmity lost when dmg is taken through it. Remember AoE in of itself anyone in range will lost enmity from the dmg as is, but dd will still get it back. honestly I which pld would have less to have to worry about using. beside JA we got a lot of magic, and then have to worry about sub job JA/spells too.
I think it not a bad direction to go, but it not really enough of a improvement to add as is.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Inside Abyssea, where you drown in MP and have enough HP to survive anything, it wouldn't necessarily matter (but it wouldn't make Paladin any less desirable than it already is). Outside, where you don't have 30MP/tic refresh and 4000 HP, an unlucky string of counters is all it takes for a MNK to die, and you can't cure bomb people forever. From my experience, the new Dynamis NMs and some of the later-stage Voidwatch NMs have impeccable accuracy against everyone, evasion sets or not. Currently, Paladin is no use here because it can't hold hate over anyone, but with a perpetual Cover effect that wouldn't matter. It could absorb the damage while still letting DD jobs do their thing.

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Have done really anything inside Dynamis since the change, but as for Voidwatch the groups I been in usually have a mnk or thf or nin for main tank, maybe a mnk or nin for a backup, a whm for heal, and a blm and or rdm, rest with melee DD. As it stands now basically the DD can tank too well even if one go down another can take their place easy as usually kite or tank it until the main tank recover.
Also absorbing maybe 10% of the dmg would be out done by the fact that a dd can take out the mob at least 10%+ fast then if you had a pld in the party instead. And like you said a pld not going to keep hate anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Making Cover a job trait impedes no one, and makes Paladin, at the very least, situationally useful, which is several steps above "pretending to be useful IF you have Ochain and Almace", where it sits now.

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Perhaps, perhaps it would do nothing.

To take from the OP idea if it became a JT it should lessen enmity decay. And that still won't be enough, but it be on the right track.

If it stayed a JA then maybe when you use cover it would absorb all dmg from members of your party and a percent of that would covert to dmg for 15-30 seconds.

I think you're missing the point that if Cover works all the time the Paladin's enmity doesn't matter.

Doing anything to it to enhance Paladin's offense in any way would not only move the job away from the niche SE has tried to carve out for it (it's the only job in the game that has developed in a purely defensive direction), it would push Paladin into an already oversaturated role; the offensive facetank. I'd rather see Paladin continue to evolve in a way that allows them to shine as they do in the lore; as a master of damage mitigation and protector of allies.

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Originally Posted by Lazus

It wouldn't work because what if there more then 1 pld in the group? or what if there was 10? would dmg just not be taken by anyone in the party or would it just be spit between pld?

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I missed this before, but whoever is standing in front of everyone else will be taking the damage. You could have an alliance of Paladins but only the one at the front of the proverbial congo-line will be taking the damage. Cover doesn't block AoE TP moves either so those will continue to hit everyone.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

I missed this before, but whoever is standing in front of everyone else will be taking the damage. You could have an alliance of Paladins but only the one at the front of the proverbial congo-line will be taking the damage. Cover doesn't block AoE TP moves either so those will continue to hit everyone.

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Actually i misread your original post and thought it mention something about just having a pld in the party to take a certain amount of dmg from each person that take dmg (I know my apology for that)

But now we on a whole different thing, is this would not only break pld, but would eliminate any control in battle. Although Enmity and survivability in aby may not be a problem as long as you keep hate off the mages. Outside aby this would have dire effects o not only pld but other jobs as well. For example, thf, they are suppose to be able to control over where hate is going, with this JT won't need it, just have a pld stand in front of the one with hate and no problem, tank won't even have to use anything else and they can tank.

Not true, they can still TA the PLD, and Accomplice/Collaborator mages and DDs, and I would argue that THF's abilities do a poor job on controlling enmity flow in the first place (it takes the enmity from other jobs and gives it to itself rather than redirecting it to the designated tank). Obviously the goal is to make the Paladin the target of the enemy's ire, but this necessitates one of any number of complete overhauls to the game and/or its mechanics.

By making Cover a job trait you allow Paladin to do what it's been built to do (take damage in the place of party members) without having to completely redesign the game around it (which creates other problems). Not only does this allow Paladin to be the shield most (if not all) of the time, it has no impact on its other abilities. It can still use Flash to blind an enemy, it can still use its shield to block, it still has Sentinel (which needs a buff of its own when you look at it compared to Third Eye and Counterstance) and Rampart (which is essentially useless... see the pattern here?), and it will still be able to contribute damage. I'd argue this helps THF, which has a helluva time trying to land a Sneak Attack when the mob is spinning 180 degrees every other swing because your DDs all have capped CE. Stack them behind your Paladin and the THF is free to SA/TA with impunity, and can also be shielded when they inevitably cap CE by taking it from the mages.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Not true, they can still TA the PLD, and Accomplice/Collaborator mages and DDs, and I would argue that THF's abilities do a poor job on controlling enmity flow in the first place (it takes the enmity from other jobs and gives it to itself rather than redirecting it to the designated tank). Obviously the goal is to make the Paladin the target of the enemy's ire, but this necessitates one of any number of complete overhauls to the game and/or its mechanics.

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SA+TA is design to transfer the hate it would of got onto a different target. Adding Accomplish and Collaborator add enmity to the thf true which can be used in a TA. SO although they not the best abilities perhaps for hate bouncing they are there to control it somewhat. Also with your cover JT sure it would make the pld the one that taking dmg, but not the target, the target would be the one you standing in front of.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

By making Cover a job trait you allow Paladin to do what it's been built to do (take damage in the place of party members) without having to completely redesign the game around it (which creates other problems). Not only does this allow Paladin to be the shield most (if not all) of the time, it has no impact on its other abilities. It can still use Flash to blind an enemy, it can still use its shield to block, it still has Sentinel (which needs a buff of its own when you look at it compared to Third Eye and Counterstance) and Rampart (which is essentially useless... see the pattern here?), and it will still be able to contribute damage. I'd argue this helps THF, which has a helluva time trying to land a Sneak Attack when the mob is spinning 180 degrees every other swing because your DDs all have capped CE. Stack them behind your Paladin and the THF is free to SA/TA with impunity, and can also be shielded when they inevitably cap CE by taking it from the mages.

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This does make pld a shield it make pld a wall, and have you seen some plds before aby, you were lucky if they would cured themselves or even flash the mob (and yes these were lvl 75 pld, probably even worst now). This all sound more like a bandage then a actual fix. Also rampart not useless it really was very nice for magic attacks also if merited a was nice to make sure you can cast your shadows or get off that cured that would save you. I agree sentinel need improving, and shield bash too.
Basically it boils down to you taking away the pld ability that they should be a tank and making it a mindless chore. "Stand in front of the player that has enmity and hey you are taking the dmg instead. If it switches target move in front of them. Have thf SATA the tank, stand in front of the tank." That really doesn't sound like tanking to me. I don't know about you but i always felt a sign of accomplishment when i did my job and kept the hate on me. Wouldn't really feel the same way if my "tanking" just had me needing to stand in front of the one taking the dmg.

lulz, it's been so long since I played Paladin I forgot I merited Iron Will. That magic shield effect is mediocre at best though, especially now with every enemy spamming -ga IVs or otherwise hard hitting magical AoE attacks.

Just to be clear, Trick Attack doesn't transfer all the THF's enmity, just the enmity generated for that strike.

Paladin has never really been great at holding hate. You either play with subpar DDs or they were holding back to keep things under control. It's to the point now though where, both inside and outside Abyssea, holding back just isn't a viable solution. You pretty much need to disengage to let a Paladin hold hate. I consider tanking to be "taking all the damage" which is what this change does. If your Paladins never cured themselves then they sucked, but that has nothing to do with how you'd play the job with a Cover job trait. I don't see how anything would change, honestly. The only difference is that your enmity level wouldn't matter, which is the entire problem in the first place.

Just because you play with lazy Paladins doesn't mean this isn't the easiest, most impactful change they can make to Paladin to add SOME usefulness to the job. If you want to stand there and AFK, that's your prerogative, but I won't be, and making Cover a job trait won't force me to.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

lulz, it's been so long since I played Paladin I forgot I merited Iron Will. That magic shield effect is mediocre at best though, especially now with every enemy spamming -ga IVs or otherwise hard hitting magical AoE attacks.

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A magic shield that reduces magic attacks against you and your party by a couple hundred is still better then nothing.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Paladin has never really been great at holding hate. You either play with subpar DDs or they were holding back to keep things under control. It's to the point now though where, both inside and outside Abyssea, holding back just isn't a viable solution. You pretty much need to disengage to let a Paladin hold hate. I consider tanking to be "taking all the damage" which is what this change does. If your Paladins never cured themselves then they sucked, but that has nothing to do with how you'd play the job with a Cover job trait. I don't see how anything would change, honestly. The only difference is that your enmity level wouldn't matter, which is the entire problem in the first place.

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Yes thy couldn't go all out right at the start of the fight but usually they could after a mins or two, and a pld could hold hate for a few mins before they would also hit the cap. I consider tanking as keeping your party alive by having the mob focus on you by actually doing your job. This change would change a lot of things and hurt pld more. We already got another bad players that use to play it when it was popular. Enmity levels should matter, basicly you metality is the same as the people that just started the game and aby from 30-90. "I want to game to play itself for me while I take it easy.

Some pld actually like to tank and want to earn it. I rather have a fix then a bandage.

QUOTE=Rorrick;118325]Just because you play with lazy Paladins doesn't mean this isn't the easiest, most impactful change they can make to Paladin to add SOME usefulness to the job. If you want to stand there and AFK, that's your prerogative, but I won't be, and making Cover a job trait won't force me to.[/QUOTE]

I never had to play with bad plds, if one didn't want to do their job (and i was patient trying to help them out if they listen) I had a choice to switch to mine.
Sure it easy, pld wouldn't have to do anything to do their job. Sure it be impactful in a negative way, and sure it make pld useful, until you realize now you really have made the job a bad job to play.and no I want to do my job and actually earn it.

I'll be honest, I've not read any of the replies in this thread. I just want to show my support for the OP. As a former PLD missing his tanking days I thoroughly support this idea.

Thumbs up from me, kudos on the idea.