PS2 Limitations: What are Rumors, What is Truth?

Ever since the last update triggered a glitch in the PS2 to react as though the HDD was full, rumors and speculation about its limitations have flared up. Some limitations like the auto translate memory has been acknowledge by Square, but otherwise it's difficult for any casual player to tell what is true or just a rumor. I wasn't sure where to put this, I'm addressing it like a Twitter question but I don't know if any forum reps will be interested in suggesting answers.

Here are the most common rumors I hear players talk about:

Rumor 1-The PS2 HDD capacity is nearly full. Or, the maximum partition space a single PS2 HDD game can use up is 8GB which FFXI is nearing. The partition limit sounds like it could be realistic. If it were I don't know how much trouble it could be to expand further or if it's possible. If partition space isn't an issue then I doubt HDD space really is an issue.

Rumor 2-There's a hard coded limit built into FFXI on how many zones the game can index. This sounds unlikely to me and I've never seen any solid info.

Rumor 3-A large population of Japanese players still use the PS2 for playing FFXI. Was this ever, or is it now still true? Something you hear a lot and it feels possible, but no real solid info.

Hopefully this at least helps communicate the popular gossip players are passing around. I'd appreciate any helpful info that could be provided.

#1 is true, but can be changed.

#2 is also true, but unless there is not even a single free byte left in ram, can also be changed.

#3 was definitely true in the past, and probably still is, but not 100% sure.

edit: apparently #2 has already been fixed.

Here is my own rumor (unconfirmed) about that glitch that said the PS2 HDD was full on the Update that occurred December 6,2010........ SE Botched something on the preliminary update they made available on November 30.

There was no Server downtime on November 30. So people already running the game were not forced to exit and receive the November 30 update.

It is my belief that anyone that just kept the game running the whole time, plus anyone that just simply didn't try to play FFXI from November 30 until December 6 had no problem with the December 6 update. Those of use that did receieve the November 30 update got that error and had to do the "Clean Install" to get the December 6 update to work.

If this were true, SE probably overlaid the bad data as they set up the December 6 update..all before anyone knew there was a problem.

I have received NO confirmation of this from SE.... it is only my own personal experience. But it is plausable.

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Originally Posted by Dsherman

Here is my own rumor (unconfirmed) about that glitch that said the PS2 HDD was full on the Update that occurred December 6,2010........ SE Botched something on the preliminary update they made available on November 30.

There was no Server downtime on November 30. So people already running the game were not forced to exit and receive the November 30 update.

It is my belief that anyone that just kept the game running the whole time, plus anyone that just simply didn't try to play FFXI from November 30 until December 6 had no problem with the December 6 update. Those of use that did receieve the November 30 update got that error and had to do the "Clean Install" to get the December 6 update to work.

If this were true, SE probably overlaid the bad data as they set up the December 6 update..all before anyone knew there was a problem.

I have received NO confirmation of this from SE.... it is only my own personal experience. But it is plausable.

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The only way this would be possible is if PC users also downloaded the bad data, a prelimenery update adds DATs but they sit inactive until an activation code is added to them so playing the game without these DATs should cause no issues.

About the rumors, I beleave the issue with the PS2 hard drive is that the ffxi partition is the issue, which is why SE decided to change it so that it deleted the old DATs before installing the others, this action by SE proves that the ffxi partition is the issue here.

There isnt a limit of zones in ffxi, the limit is in the PS2's RAM, it only has 32MB which is pathetic for todays standards, all they could do is try to make a type of page filing to get round this problem, but I dont know how easy that would be.

however I cant say the exact numbers of japanese playing on the PS2 but as far as I beleve is that the Japanese prefer to play on consoles rather than PC which would enforce the argument that the main japanese playerbase plays on PS2

Hmm, interesting responses. It would be great if someone at Square could address some of these at some point. Because as you can see from a lot of other threads it turns into hysteria about the PS2 ending the game etc. when they may not know what they're talking about.

I'm not sure about that "bad data" notion. The way Square made it sound was like the method PS2 was downloading new updates made it think like it was using up/downloading twice the amount of stuff it really was. So it acted like it was full.

It's kinda funny and strange that PS2 is still considered so strictly. If any player now were to try to play FFXI on PS2 they can't. The only currently in use model is thin and has no HDD. The PS2 game is also very hard to find if at all. And PS3 doesnt support PS2 games anymore and it is not on PSN. If they were to drop support for PS2 and make it downloadable for PSN in some fashion then PS2 limitations will be no more. Might become 360 limitations afterwards :P

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Originally Posted by rog

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#2 is also true, but unless there is not even a single free byte left in ram, can also be changed.

[...]

edit: apparently #2 has already been fixed.

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Kind of curious where you got the source code to know that the supposed area limit is hard coded? Hard coded, of course, meaning it's in the source code opposed to an external .DAT. And that's something that would only need to be loaded into memory upon changing zones, while a bunch of other much more memory intensive things are being unloaded from memory, so there should be no issue with memory that causes an area limit.

They did fix it to an extend. Earlier SE let the PS2 house a bunch of junk files that where completely unessisary anymore. Just remove all of them and you probably instantly have at least a gig of freespace. They made it so it gets rid of the junk files now dont it?

In any case, I really hate how they are limiting the PCs gameplay because of the PS2. They really should make different installments of the gamen for PS2 and other systems. Might even persuade PS2 players to move away from the dark ages of PS2.

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Originally Posted by Kaosis

It's kinda funny and strange that PS2 is still considered so strictly. If any player now were to try to play FFXI on PS2 they can't. The only currently in use model is thin and has no HDD. The PS2 game is also very hard to find if at all. And PS3 doesnt support PS2 games anymore and it is not on PSN. If they were to drop support for PS2 and make it downloadable for PSN in some fashion then PS2 limitations will be no more. Might become 360 limitations afterwards :P

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PS2 FFXI and the HDD are still in print in Japan, as are non-slim PS2s last time I checked the Japanese PlayStation.com store. Compatible PS3s are globally discontinued though.

Japan had a lot of HDD support in games, and they got the HDD in 2001. Sony of Japan couldn't just discontinue it, especially with most Japanese online games charging a monthly fee on PS2. Nobunaga's Ambition Online, Final Fantasy XI, Front Mission Online, Net de Bomberman, Minna no Golf Online, both Resident Evil Outbreaks, and probably a few games I'm missing required the HDD (Resident Evil Outbreak merely used the HDD if present and let you join games where others were using the HDD), and all had a monthly fee to play in Japan.

Meanwhile, SCEA stripped out HDD support from a bunch of games that got brought over, and delayed the HDD release until 2004, only to discontinue it a few months later, because there wasn't a lot of pressure here from games requiring it.

The game launched on PS2 in Japan, with a PC version being released 6+ months later, and the PS2 version has been constantly in print in Japan, with yearly collections on disc for PS2 until at least 2008. It's always been easy for them to get it.

EDIT: So I checked for a link to provide, and I guess they finally stopped selling model 50000 non-slims in Japan, and the HDD is no longer listed on the Japanese site for order. At least I can't find it with the current layout. Still, it took them much longer to do so. I was able to order one after WotG released.

http://www.jpbutton.com/?page_id=3113

Elmer, the guy who runs that site, lives in Japan. The HDD and compatible PS2s were still on shelves new in 2009 there. The information he collected then said ~30% of JP players were on PS2 then.

So thats the reason why its so hard to drop ps2.

Aside from the fact that the japanese dont want it dropped.. its because this is a PS2 game, ported over to the PC and 360

By dropping the ps2 they are gonna drop the Core design of the game.

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Originally Posted by Futan

Kind of curious where you got the source code to know that the supposed area limit is hard coded? Hard coded, of course, meaning it's in the source code opposed to an external .DAT. And that's something that would only need to be loaded into memory upon changing zones, while a bunch of other much more memory intensive things are being unloaded from memory, so there should be no issue with memory that causes an area limit.

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Check the memory? Your current area was stored in a 1 byte variable, which limits it to 255 possible values. According to someone in another thread this was changed recently, so the new the cap would be 65535, which obviously will never be reaches.

And no, it can't just be checked when zoning. It needs to constantly be in memory, just like your x,y,z position.

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Originally Posted by rog

According to someone in another thread this was changed recently, so the new the cap would be 65535, which obviously will never be reaches.

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What is the other thread or reference you're talking about? Is it on this forum or somewhere else?

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Originally Posted by Gwynplaine

What is the other thread or reference you're talking about? Is it on this forum or somewhere else?

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On here. Not sure what thread it was. May have been deleted even, not sure.

imo, I think the solution is to port the game to the ps3 with a native client that uses the same .dat files. And if that is done, can the "code" be expanded or fixed from there? Which brings up the questions. How hard is this to do? How much will this cost to do it? Are the FFXI players willing to buy the ps3 version to pay for these costs?

The PC version has proved that the design of the game can be pushed graphically past what was done on the ps2. I have had friends watch me play and say that this game looks awesome.

The design and background of Vana'diel seems that it has many more areas that can be opened for future expansion but it saddens me that this would be cut back by ps2 HDD limitations.

I hope this this post fits with this topic.

Do people think that FFXI will magically be super pretty/optimized and *** like newer games if PS2 support is dropped?

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Originally Posted by Yarly

Do people think that FFXI will magically be super pretty/optimized and *** like newer games if PS2 support is dropped?

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I'd settle for 100+ inventory slots.

Well if PS2 were dropped, we could maybe have an actual expansion with new zones, art, story, graphical engine upgrade, auto-translate update, and so on.

Hard to do tho due a lot of Japanese ppl still play on PS2 and other ppl around the globe. They would have to do something to convince ppl to move to new systems, like a PS3 downloaded version or even some type of discount with Sony on PS3 or something.

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Originally Posted by Nathos

Well if PS2 were dropped, we could maybe have an actual expansion with new zones, art, story, graphical engine upgrade, auto-translate update, and so on.

Hard to do tho due a lot of Japanese ppl still play on PS2 and other ppl around the globe. They would have to do something to convince ppl to move to new systems, like a PS3 downloaded version or even some type of discount with Sony on PS3 or something.

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Auto translate is the only one of those that are being held back by the ps2.

Dropping support for the PS2 is a red herring.

Final Fantasy XI is first and foremost a PS2 game, it was written for that platform first. And when it came to other platforms, the game wasn't rewritten from the ground up, but was instead ported to the PC (and from the PC to the Xbox 360). No matter what you're playing FFXI on, everything under the hood of the game, from mechanics to graphics, is at its core PS2 code. Simply disallowing PS2 hardware will not change the PS2 legacy for PC and 360 players.

So, really, what you're asking for is one of two options:

1. A kludge fix, on top of a kludge, on top of another kludge, all onto a system of code already being held together by liberal amounts of duck tape and chewing gum. You're talking about a game written for the PlayStation 2 and then ported to Windows 98. At best, solutions won't be as elegant as you would prefer. Realistically, there will be new problems caused in the name of "trade-offs," and the "solution" may be worse than the problem.

1. A total rewrite of the code base from the ground up, a "Final Fantasy XI All-Stars" or "Final Fantasy XI: The Wiley Wars." It involves almost as much work as making a new game entirely. It involves almost as much money as making a new game entirely. And this for a game that has a declining player base, in spite of a price tag as low as $10 (or $5 digital download)? Even if the publisher in question weren't hemorrhaging cash on Final Fantasy XIV, Adam Smith would have words for you.

Final Fantasy XI is almost a decade old. It's showing its age. Continued support of the PS2 isn't your problem, the passage of nine years is your problem. And unless you have a flux capacitor lying about, there is no fix for that, not even if you scapegoat PS2 players.

"If only id would drop support for DOS, Doom II would look and play like Halo!" It doesn't work that way.

Of course. No one expects the game to be rewritten like that. But it would solve the problem of being limited to 32mb of ram.

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs. The game will eventually die if they stay going the way they are.(keeping everyone on same playing ground as ps2) SE now has a new dedicated team to XI, so that would lead me to believe they want to keep going with it. So what about the idea of having 2 versions of xi, one with the original servers for people that refuse to leave the ps2. These servers will continue on getting reskins and no new zones or jobs. (Maybe they can use the old servers that are being migrated)

Now there will also be new servers for pc/xbox/ps3 people to have the option to migrate to in order to enjoy new content. Now this may require another dedicated team to the ps2 people but it keeps everyone happy and playing. Maybe the ps2 people will see how well the game advanced and how fun it looks and decide to migrate to the newer systems.

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Originally Posted by Ethereal

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs.

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Not so far as we know, the only true limit acknowledged by Square so far has been for the auto translator. The rest seems unlikely. And as for jobs the only thing holding new jobs back is most likely the sheer difficulty of pointless redundancy at this point. But I really didn't want to turn this thread into an anti-PS2/new jobs discussion. Some interesting and useful stuff so far though.

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Originally Posted by Ethereal

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs. The game will eventually die if they stay going the way they are.(keeping everyone on same playing ground as ps2) SE now has a new dedicated team to XI, so that would lead me to believe they want to keep going with it. So what about the idea of having 2 versions of xi, one with the original servers for people that refuse to leave the ps2. These servers will continue on getting reskins and no new zones or jobs. (Maybe they can use the old servers that are being migrated)

Now there will also be new servers for pc/xbox/ps3 people to have the option to migrate to in order to enjoy new content. Now this may require another dedicated team to the ps2 people but it keeps everyone happy and playing. Maybe the ps2 people will see how well the game advanced and how fun it looks and decide to migrate to the newer systems.

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That is just a terrible policy towards customers. You can't tell someone who purchased the game on PS2 : Ok so you'll enjoy a low tier version of the game, while your monthly fee will go toward the development of new content for PC/X360 users.

That is just completely wrong. Especially when PS2 users are the most loyal ones.
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Regarding the thread initial topic, asking "What is the truth" doesn't make much sense. If something isn't confirmed by SE, then we cannot be completely sure. And if anyone is giving precise facts that weren't released by SE it would mean either :

- Information were leaked from internal sources (Sony / SE / Microsoft etc.). Publishing them wouldn't be allowed.
- You have reverse engineered the game, which is a violation of the User Agreement.

At best what we can do is guess and then we fall into the "rumors" category.

The only potential issue with the ps2 is storage space thats it lol and even then i'm sure there work arounds like an option to uninstall old/unused content maybe who knows.

The main reason that there isn't gonna be another big expansion has nothing to do with ps2 limitations it has to do with a lesser player base meaning newer content has a smaller budget so old content being revamped or reused is the best way to get a large amount of content for a small price.

There was no zone cap to begin with they used 1 byte of data for the reference for each zone and once there reach the limit they just remade it so that it used 2 bytes instead or so i've read.

The problem with auto translate and items is probably more to do with them being hard wired into the game commands in such a way they can't be altered because it's prolly coded in such a way u'd need to probably debug the entire game or something along those lines or a ram issue like rog said.

Honestly theres no real issue with items anymore since locker, satchel and sack and the addition of the porter moogle and Auto translate honestly it does what it could potentially do anyway no amount of expansion on it will allow me to chat to other language more than it does already there some optimizing for SE to do on useless text like controller buttons and such.

At the end of the day the Dev team should really just comment on the questions asked so we can just leave this pointless discussion.

Either way do u really Squareenix will recode FFXI because it will take money and it can only come from what we spend on the game atm which is used for major updates which would mean we'd choose a year without any real update where even more pple will just give up on FFXI for a new FFXI which would need to be resold and compete against FFXIV?

And even if they did drop ps2 they'd prolly just say programming,xbox360,xp limitations next.

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And even if they did drop ps2 they'd prolly just say programming,xbox360,xp limitations next.

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And if they did, we'd know they're lying.

Well we don't know how they did the 360 port so it could have the same or similar limitations to the ps2

That's why implementing something for both parties keeps everyone happy. I really don't see how that's unfair at all, could even adjust monthly fees if they feel the difference is worth a change. If you want to refer to the same type of updates we get now as a lower tier version of ffxi thats up to you...but i think unless we get some real new content I can see everyone dropping out eventually. Abyssea/reskinned zones was a nice addition with the new mobs and superpowered characters, but I already see people getting bored of it.

I read that the WOTG expansion pushed PS2 very close to it's limit, which is why we havent seen anything all new since. All it is, re-skins and tweaks to old content to make it seem like new stuff.

I'm not completely in this thread to bash on the ps2, I have a ps2 version (mainly for fishing lol) and pc myself... but like I said, if we did hit a cap for real new content because of the ps2, well I think something needs to be done about that, some sort of compromise.

Now this is an opinion, but for MMPORGs, I think they should evolve with technology. Expansions after expansions, the amount of disk space itself continues to grow. I'm sure SE wants to add stuff, and has so many ideas, but they are scratching their heads trying to come up with a way to implement it in a way where ps2 can handle it. I never really agreed with playing MMPORGs on a console anyway...anything that is typically played for very long periods of time per day should probably be done on a PC to be honest. I have 2 friends that had XI on ps2 and when their playstations died, they couldn't seem to get their hands on the fat ones for hard drives, only the slim ones. So I mean, it's an evolving ongoing game being played with a dead technology.

Square Enix do this.

1. Drop PS2 Support

2. Focus on updates that were not capable before due to 32 MB of Ram, PS2.

3. Later with these updates release a new collection with all the content and a release of that on Xbox 360, PC & PS3

-Side note

Apparently you can't even buy the PS2 version of FFXI anymore in America. And it's extremely expensive on ebay.

That's a sign already.

Create new servers for ps3, xbox 360, PC and allow players if they choose to move there and update the game

Let the ps2 players stay on the current servers.

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

Apparently you can't even buy the PS2 version of FFXI anymore in America. And it's extremely expensive on ebay.

That's a sign already.

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It's rare/ex in the UK as well. There was a NA ps2 with it pre-loaded on eBay but it wasn't cheap and that's one console over the whole site!!

They will never drop ps2 support due ta the amount of JP players still using it.And not every1 can afford ta just up an buy a new system.Im lucky enough ta live in Japan an cofirm alot of them still use the ps2.Plus being military i am fortunate enough ta afford the other 3 platforms(had the original ps2 still working)so i have it on all 4 platforms.and the game sux ass on 360,it lagspikes everytime u zone into a new zone,and goodluck trying ta do any campain.. lol.The only good thing about FFXI being on 360 is the graphics are better than ps2.Plus how could u alienate all the ps2 players onto their own server?,then i couldnt play with my 2 brothers who play on ps2.That would cause way too many problems for ppl. But SE should release a ps3 version of the game for those who cant get the old ps2 anymore,i know it is hard ta come by now days.I mean seriously,how can u put it on 360 but cant figure it out for ps3?

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Plus how could u alienate all the ps2 players onto their own server?,then i couldnt play with my 2 brothers who play on ps2.

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not at all. The new servers would be an option. You wouldn't have to leave if you didn't want to.

I think the decision should be made with an official poll.

Make it happen SE.

ooh a poll! I think the best way for that to be done is to be built into the game and have the moghouse moogle have the option.

Another interesting fact I remember hearing was there was a set max number of attributes all gear could have because of the way the game was coded for the ps2. I heard this at a fan fest from the devs. I think it was 7 but I'm not entirely sure that was the number.

I personally have 2 ps2s with FFXI installed on it and a ps3 with FFXI installed on it. On the ps3, the partition is 13 gb. One of my ps2 is Japanese.

Yes that's something that Square has said for certain. There's only so many "Lines" or "single stat types" you can put on a piece of gear. For example base stats like DEX INT MND are all one "line". Haste+3 would be one "line". And then elemental resistance would be another. I don't remember what the limit was but it's posted somewhere a while ago. I don't know if that's a PS2 limit, I guess by implication it would be but even so there's only so much info you can put on those item boxes.

Omigod... THERE ARE NO PS2 limitations regarding this game... The HDD issue has been resolved! And no one here is a PS2 developer...

The idea that the PS2 is limiting the game is ridiculous... compare it too other PS2 games... God of War, FFXII, GT4, Shadow of the Colossus...

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Originally Posted by Delsus

There isnt a limit of zones in ffxi, the limit is in the PS2's RAM, it only has 32MB which is pathetic for todays standards, all they could do is try to make a type of page filing to get round this problem, but I dont know how easy that would be.

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What's not pathetic is the 2560bit wide bus the PS2 GPU utilizes... that's 1024 reading, 1024 writing, 512 read or write.

The PS2 is not holding this game back... in anyway what so ever. Rather the aging engine is the issue.

I'm not sure what you'd expect if they did drop PS2 support.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

What's not pathetic is the 2560bit wide bus the PS2 GPU utilizes... that's 1024 reading, 1024 writing, 512 read or write.

The PS2 is not holding this game back... in anyway what so ever. Rather the aging engine is the issue.

I'm not sure what you'd expect if they did drop PS2 support.

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You realize the ps2 has a total of 32 mb of ram, right? The gpu/cpu obviously aren't holding it back at all.

The only real rumor at this point seems to be this 8GB partition accusation. If it turns out that's not true then I don't see any real explicit way the PS2 is holding back new developments in the game.

It's 10 gigabytes...12 Gigabytes for TetraMaster + PlayOnline + FFXI. A full install of FFXI on the PS2 still likely uses less 8GB once installed. Leaving 2GB for storing updates temporarily when they in the process of being downloaded. It's very likely that unexpected issue was caused by duplicate files that weren't properly removed after installations of updates. In any case this issue has been fixed.