BLM/SMN Staff Weapon Skills limited without proper subs

For the longest time I've been curious as to why BLM and SMN were always restricted from using certain weapon skills with a staff without the use of a proper sub job. Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons all focus primarily on BLM and SMN (and I guess SCH but I don't know much about that job). Relic staff: BLM/SMN only. BLM and SMN mythics are staves. Empyrean staff is BLM/SMN/SCH. Not the jobs that are required in order to use specific weapon skills: Earth Crusher, Sunburst, and Cataclysm. The first two are used for red triggers, and Cataclysm could be used by said solo BLM or SMN to build their Abyssean lights, or for use as other triggers in new battlefields, or simply because it's the most damaging weapon skill as a BLM without cruor/atma buffs. Even just for kicks or self satisfaction we are unable to perform these weapon skills, and I'm not even sure why. If Black Mages and Summoners were predetermined to use staves, I don't understand the logic behind this restriction. Care to explain? Is it so difficult to lift this?

Well I think the developers chose those weapon skills in mind for procs because if blms got them as well then we would then have the majority of the spells for grellow procs, blunt blue procs, and now staff red procs. That a lot of procs for blm where as some jobs have hardly any. I'm a career blm, I love all fellow blm's as well but I think the logic was simply that, to not over load one job with important procs.

I think it's strange that BLM and SMN don't have access to all the weaponskills. But, I can see what Schrute is saying.

This was the case many many years before Abyssea was ever thought of. You can't tell me that this was predetermined in a 10 year old game. Procs may be a major purpose for these weapon skill now, but the fact that they were never available makes no sense. They do have other uses outside of procing NMs.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Well I think the developers chose those weapon skills in mind for procs because if blms got them as well then we would then have the majority of the spells for grellow procs, blunt blue procs, and now staff red procs. That a lot of procs for blm where as some jobs have hardly any. I'm a career blm, I love all fellow blm's as well but I think the logic was simply that, to not over load one job with important procs.

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This doesn't really work against BLM, as /WHM is workable--and it also extends it's yellow proc line into WHM as well. And SMN can just as easily /WHM as well.

What really baffles me is the MELEE jobs that get native access to Cataclysm, which has MAGE stats for it's mods.

Just bassackwards.

If I were to wager a guess it would simply be that these jobs are Mages, whose roles have very little to do with melee combat. They are given staff skill so that they have the ability to hit things with a weapon if they absolutely need to, but it is no surprise that they do not have access to higher tier combat abilities like HQ WS.

Blm and Smn are not Stave Masters. They are non-melee jobs who have a basic proficiency in staves because it would make even less sense to give them any sort of proficiency in anything else.

The odd part is if I recall correctly both (or at at least Smn) have higher skill than Whm who does get all the EX staff Weaponskills. Then again they also made Sanguine Blade EX so..

Because BLM, SMN, and SCH are the jobs that need weapon skills the least. All three are very capable of DDing with spells and bloodpacts instead.

bah... but it get sooooo boring sometimes. It's a hella lot of fun to run in swinging a scythe like a maniac. Don't hit much, but it gives everyone a good laugh now and then.....

In all seriousness though, BLM and SMN can be pretty handy with a Staff. Club as well--if you're set up for them, that is. Setup your own chains to burst with and such--there is a lot of potential in there to make the jobs more than just the cookie-cutter, one-trick ponies everyone has pigeon-holed them into over the years.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If I were to wager a guess it would simply be that these jobs are Mages, whose roles have very little to do with melee combat. They are given staff skill so that they have the ability to hit things with a weapon if they absolutely need to, but it is no surprise that they do not have access to higher tier combat abilities like HQ WS.

Blm and Smn are not Stave Masters. They are non-melee jobs who have a basic proficiency in staves because it would make even less sense to give them any sort of proficiency in anything else.

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This would make sense, If not for WHM.

What with WHM not being a melee job (Don't gimme lip), getting access to not only unique Weaponskills of Club and Staff (both!), But also a 100% unique to WHM Weaponskill (Hexastrike)

WHM is on the same boat a BLM, and SMN, They are not masters of clubs (Only ~B skill? PLD has A-), They are simply given basic proficiency. Yet they get so much.

There is no valid excuse for BLM and SMN not to at least receive exclusive Staff Weaponskills :\, Even if their only use is Red triggers. They are on the Relic Staff after all... It just makes no sense.

So i don't think that reasoning works :(

WHM, for some reason, was given an entire subsection of EX clubs too (Maul class).

PLD has an A- club skill, but they are limited to Mace class weapons and the occasional Rod class weapon.

They gave WHM a stronger melee ability than RDM, making it the strongest physical DD among all of the pure mages. It's really more of an exception rather than the rule. It may have had something to do with the fact that WHM is the only pure mage that lacks potent offensive spells. RDM can nuke things. BLM can nuke things. SMN can nuke things. SCH can nuke things. WHM can't. WHM is a purely defensive caster, so it's plausible that they were given a reasonable Melee option as a last resort ability to deal damage if absolutely necessary.

I think some of you have to go back to math class. Claiming SMN doesn't need staff WSes because it CAN nuke, without taking into consideration that between each nuke there is a downtime of 45 seconds where your only possible choices are melee or rest, before you start looking at sub jobs.

Few people take a second look at SMN and notice that it is built more like a melee than BLU. BLU has enough different spells to simply go stand at the backline and cast cures and cannons and spits and what have you for ranged attacks.

The only reason BLUs are even up front meleeing is that SE for unknown reasons decided to give them better armor selection. Back in the past they even had better than PUP, but due to PUP complaints SE fixed this. Why SE doesn't listen to SMNs and fix those armors as well is beyond me. I guess with the lack of lolPUP we need lolSMN on our servers.

Anyone who disagree have never given the job a second thought and just taken it all at face value.

There is absolutely no point arguing with someone who firmly believes that Haste>25% is broken, but I find it hilarious that the same person is telling others to go take a math class.

I never said a darn thing about what SMN "needs" or does not "need". The fact of the matter is that they have other offensive options. Their avatar can melee between those 45 second BPs, and is/was expected to when the job was conceptualized and combat skills were set. Summoner is a mage who has extra-planar creatures do the fighting for them. Can they melee? Sure. Is it understandable why the choice was made not to give them EX Staff WS? Definitely.

Whether I agree with that choice or not is irrelevant. I'm simply saying that it can make sense.

Myrkr beats the living snot out of all the other WSs, /WHM or otherwise. That said, I still think mages should get these WS. SMN in particular is the job that can only benefit from Primeval Brew by equipping a subjob.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

WHM, for some reason, was given an entire subsection of EX clubs too (Maul class).

PLD has an A- club skill, but they are limited to Mace class weapons and the occasional Rod class weapon.

They gave WHM a stronger melee ability than RDM, making it the strongest physical DD among all of the pure mages. It's really more of an exception rather than the rule. It may have had something to do with the fact that WHM is the only pure mage that lacks potent offensive spells. RDM can nuke things. BLM can nuke things. SMN can nuke things. SCH can nuke things. WHM can't. WHM is a purely defensive caster, so it's plausible that they were given a reasonable Melee option as a last resort ability to deal damage if absolutely necessary.

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While there may be alternative reasons, I just feel the argument "They're not melee" didn't hold water because of WHM and its Club skills/etc. Thats all GG =.=a

Regardless, Earth Crusher and Sunburst are more or less completely worthless outside of Red Triggers so meh.

Though, As with the above statement, I can't fathom why people care so much outside of Abyssea triggers...

So i could live without getting them.

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There is absolutely no point arguing with someone who firmly believes that Haste>25% is broken, but I find it hilarious that the same person is telling others to go take a math class.

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It is broken if there is no equal options for other damage dealers. Why should a DD be able to WS every 30 seconds, but a SMN not able to BP every 30 seconds? If SE set BP timer cap at -15, it should mean that no melee should ever reach 100% TP before 45 seconds have passed. If you can cut off more than 15 seconds on your TP gain speed, it is broken or unbalanced.

I don't ask for more than fair treatment. No requests to be the ultimate job. Just a job on par with every other job. (And obviously not tanking like a NIN, DDing like a WAR, nuking like a BLM, and buffing like a BRD)

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Whether I agree with that choice or not is irrelevant. I'm simply saying that it can make sense.

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Most things makes sense.
Give SMN thunder III. Well, that makes sense. Rydia had some low level BLM spells, similar to a DRK.
Give SMN cure V. Well, Dagger had high level cures to go with the summons.

Other things make less sense.
Give H2H to SMN. Well... isn't staff more of a mage job weapon? I know FF5 could have you H2H as SMN/MNK combo but still...
Give Sentinel to SMN. Damage negation is wonderful for mage... but it gives hate spike too, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be counter intuitive?

In this case we are saying the job with relic, mythic and empyrean staffs, should have access to all WSes for staff. It seems VERY reasonable.

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Myrkr beats the living snot out of all the other WSs, /WHM or otherwise.

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Myrkr is a fine WS, it is just that the weapons it comes on are pointless. Ideal weapons for Myrkr are things like OA2-4 staff, TP bonus, -Perpetuation, or nirvana with the +10 or if it was +30 accuracy bonus. But the empy and fake empy both only have high DMG and no helpful TP-ing stats.

I'd be more interested in getting an empy for Spirit Taker, due to having high DMG so I can get high MP returns and good WS damage. It is just backwards. Not to mention entirely ironic since I used to post that SE doesn't understand that unless the WS gives MP, it is a useless WS for mages... so we got one that does no damage and only gives MP, on a DD staff...

It just keeps amaze me that SE has had 10 years to work on SMN and still have gotten 95% of all related updates wrong.

Like why are there still perpetuation in this game? I can get it to zero, so it is not for balance issues. Only reason I can think of is "So SMNs have some endgame gear to hunt down". Why not give us HP slip too, and give us regen armors? Brilliant endgame armor design in the making.

Red Mage can equip Relic, Mythic and Empyrean swords, but it doesnt natively get Red Lotus Blade or Seraph Blade. More importantly it doesnt get Vorpal Blade.

Well, it is all kind of ironic. Like you could once again pull the argument that RDMs can nuke, so they didn't get EX weaponskills. But if you actually step back in time, Holy was a great nuke that WHMs had while having EX weaponskills, but SE nerfed that. Perhaps because "WHM has EX weaponskills, they shouldn't have nukes"? Though I'm more inclined to think they nerfed holy because BLMs complained and it didn't make sense to have PLDs dealing massive magic damage.

Which again bring me to a great point. BLMs complaining about nuking WHMs -> Nerf. SMNs complaining about lack of WSes -> nothing. Because you can't complain yourself to an update, only to someone elses nerf.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

This doesn't really work against BLM, as /WHM is workable

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I seriously hope you do not play blm.

I don't think it would be unbalanced to give these WS to their respective jobs natively. The point I'm trying to make is that it would just make sense to give BLM/SMN/SCH more native staff WS (and maybe club, excluding Hexa. They are generally magey type weapons). And of course to give RDM their respective sword WS. This would be far from game breaking as simply using the right sub job would provide access to these. It's just ironic that you HAVE to use certain sub jobs in order to use these skills.

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Originally Posted by rog

I seriously hope you do not play blm.

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I do, and when I need the WS for proc (or want the luxury of free reraise or maybe tele), I /WHM. It by no means breaks the job (esp. when it comes to abyssea and atmas), and often times if I did not opt to /WHM to benefit the group, we would not have gotten the proc we need to get the items we are after.

Sometimes you have to be willing to put down the cookie cutters to get things done. Would be nice if we didn't have to, but at least the option is there until SE gets their heads out of their collective @$$es and does right by some of these jobs.

Honestly, i cannot think of any valid situation where you would have no one else that can do staff ws, but would have a blm that could survive without /rdm. Duoing with a rdm is the closest i can come up with, but then the real answer would be to change to war.

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Originally Posted by rog

Honestly, i cannot think of any valid situation where you would have no one else that can do staff ws, but would have a blm that could survive without /rdm. Duoing with a rdm is the closest i can come up with, but then the real answer would be to change to war.

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The idea isn't that BLM and others should get these WS for procs. These WS were not available long before Abyssea or any sort of 'procing' NM that would have required them. This thread was started to point out the irony that certain jobs whose main weapon of choice is the staff (as shown on relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons), or RDM on sword, among others as well I'm sure. There is no reason not to give these WS to these jobs that don't natively have access to them.

PS: I like that you can't "like" your own posts anymore. Rog's posts will always be stuck at 0 now. :P

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

The idea isn't that BLM and others should get these WS for procs. These WS were not available long before Abyssea or any sort of 'procing' NM that would have required them. This thread was started to point out the irony that certain jobs whose main weapon of choice is the staff (as shown on relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons), or RDM on sword, among others as well I'm sure. There is no reason not to give these WS to these jobs that don't natively have access to them.

PS: I like that you can't "like" your own posts anymore. Rog's posts will always be stuck at 0 now. :P

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Not sure wtf you are talking about, since my post was about how blm subbing whm is entirely retarded, not that blm should not get these ws.

You'll have to excuse my occasional dyslexia. The way I read it, I thought you were suggesting the obvious alternative in the case of Abyssea procs. I wouldn't want to rely on a BLM for weapon procs either, but that is beside the point. Anyway... Carry on.

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Originally Posted by rog

Honestly, i cannot think of any valid situation where you would have no one else that can do staff ws, but would have a blm that could survive without /rdm. Duoing with a rdm is the closest i can come up with, but then the real answer would be to change to war.

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Assuming the other jobs have staff and club leveled, then yes...but considering mine have been at/near capped for forever and a day, I am actually ASKED to proc them. Seeing as I have never run into any real problems with it, I have no problem doing it. It works for me and my crew, so we do it when it will help things go smoother.

But, to each his own....

I like your sig, Raist. Just thought I would point that out.
/random off now

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Assuming the other jobs have staff and club leveled, then yes...but considering mine have been at/near capped for forever and a day, I am actually ASKED to proc them. Seeing as I have never run into any real problems with it, I have no problem doing it. It works for me and my crew, so we do it when it will help things go smoother.

But, to each his own....

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I guess, if you are in a pickup group with retards. I am hesitant to count that as a valid situation, but i suppose that is how a lot of people get there gear.

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Originally Posted by rog

I guess, if you are in a pickup group with retards. I am hesitant to count that as a valid situation, but i suppose that is how a lot of people get there gear.

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Actually, it's more a question of efficiency. Why force one job into charging TP up on the spot for WS once you get the hint for what the proc is, when you can spread them out across multiple players? Everyone has TP and once the hint is given, said player runs in to WS and then we continue on to next proc or go into full attack mode. It saves time in the long run. This is how we generally do things, not pick-up groups--it is planned out where everyone is assigned a role so we can do things as quickly as possible.

While BLM/RDM is generally more optimal, when your objective is to hop in, get proc's, and kill quickly /WHM can provide more benefit than what you are loosing by not /RDM. Atma's, food, and gear can cover most everything you would be relying on from /RDM that isn't already covered by the RDM in your group, and by /whm you are providing an additional proc option while relieving that proc duty from another job's list of things to do.

Again, I already stated it is not the best way to go, but it by no means breaks the job. It would be better if we had access to the WS's on the jobs that are built around the weapons in question, but until SE realizes that...using the subjob to gain access is a workable alternative in group situations

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Originally Posted by rog

I guess, if you are in a pickup group with retards. I am hesitant to count that as a valid situation, but i suppose that is how a lot of people get there gear.

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Here's the valid situation: WAR, BLM or SMN, WHM, + one other all got 100% TP farming a pop item. Discernment says "Light WS," go! WHM uses club, mage uses staff, etc = red proc in 10 seconds. Those PUGs aren't looking that stupid if you play what you preach.

smn is not a valid situation.

Those of us competent with pet jobs are more than happy to teach the rest of you.