Make the cap 30 seconds to allow Summoners to keep up with other jobs in the game. What we do isn't nearly powerful enough to justify a maximum -25% reduction in delay when melees can cap haste at 80%(attacking up to 4 times in a round iirc it seems unfair that the best SMN can do is 3/4) and mages get their spells all on seperate timers so supporting a party is much less painful. I'm not asking to be better than the specialists just to make up a little of the ground thats between us.
I'm sitting on -22 seconds on Garuda with only a few pieces and theres lots more -BP delay out there thats completely useless now especially as I'm working on all the magian - perp staves +2 I'll cap BP delay with these and the YYR
lower bloodpact delay cap
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05-17-2011, 07:30 PMRazushulower bloodpact delay cap
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05-17-2011, 09:54 PMRAIST
|Yes, please.|
And don't use that whole argument of DoT. There are plenty of jobs out there that can do as much or more damage in less time than SMN right now, and likely even still with a 30 second BP delay--especially if they continue to neglect the job in the updates like they keep doing. Still scratching my head over the Titan nerf...... -
05-18-2011, 12:08 AMKorpg
I'm so glad your name isn't hordcore.
Although I doubt they would do it, because that would mean a lot of happy SMNs out there getting 33% better overnight, those who are already at the top tier of SMN would blow past other jobs like crazy, and there would be a lot of angry DRKs and SAMs out there who all of the sudden got outdamaged over time by a SMN. Average DRKs and SAMs vs top tier SMNs btw. -
05-18-2011, 01:59 AMMalamasala
I still say the following change should be done to SMN.
Blood Pact:
Job Ability
Recast: 60 second
Effect: Next pet command generates no hate towards the master
And the old Blood Pact list is changed into a Pet Command list.
Result is that you can still only deal hate free damage every minute (Hello THF!), but you can also deal as much damage as your MP allows, if you want to take the hate for it.
And there you have it. A perfect and functional Summoner job, without any crappy global restraints. If you want it even better, you give it a charges system.
And feel free to spread the idea. I'm more often than not convinced I'm on administrators and developers ignore lists due to being too fantastic at ideas. (And possibly arrogant) -
05-18-2011, 02:55 AMJalonisWould take a lot more effort than you think. Pets already maintain their own hate in the hate tables, you'd have to redesign every summon to instead have the master's hate instead of their own. Then you have beastmasters and puppetmasters who can still deal *nearly* hate free dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
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05-18-2011, 03:13 AMKrisan
I don't understand why they don't just remove the global recasts altogether and give every Avatar individual recast timers per ability. - BP Time on gear could universally lower the time on every command you give, but could still have the high cap it already does so that you couldn't dramatically lower the time between certain commands. This way SMN would end up more MP bound than anything else, and would likely be a hell of a lot more useful in a party situation. (What with being able to swap between Avatars and apply different buffs between them for the party.)
All you'd really need to do to balance this is make certain commands have higher recast than the 1 minute timer we have globally now, while a few others would remain at 1 minute. (And perhaps some less useful commands would even be less.) But really even if it were just a minute per unique command (before factoring in - BP) at the minimum, we'd still be able to do a hell of a lot more than we can now.. Which I think would make most SMN pretty happy.
I mean yea, you'd likely see your favorite Rage pacts going up to 2-5 minutes or something. So you couldn't use Predator Claw as much as now - but you could use a good rage pact from one Avatar, then switch to another and use theirs. Maybe even potentially cycling between all of them. -- But we all know Avatars aren't created equally, and their damage types vary, so realistically we wouldn't be able to cycle between them all and perpetuate constant damage while waiting on the recasts.. not in any kind of MP efficient or satisfying way. But that's okay because we have a ton of other abilities at our disposal we could be doing while waiting on those Rage pacts. (Tons of buffing potential, and debuffing rage pacts..) -
05-18-2011, 03:25 AMRazushu
That seems fair to me top tier JobX should probably out perform average JobY in a balanced game if they're both designed to be able to deal damage
Although as I said i just want to make up a little of the ground not outperform -
05-18-2011, 06:27 AMRezeak
I think the best way to add this is to lower cap to say 40 secs then have a 10 min ja that buffs 1 avatar so that u can get it down to 30 secs but once that avatar dies you lose the -10 bp buff.
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05-18-2011, 06:29 AMGlamdring
Sorry, you can't buff pet jobs, You might hurt Ilax's feelings...
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05-18-2011, 06:44 AMKorpgCan't hurt for trying though, can it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
But I see your point. -
05-18-2011, 06:56 AMRazushuThen lets hurt some GD feelingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
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05-18-2011, 07:08 AMAldersyde
Buffing or making pet jobs efficient or fun is total anathema to SE. Sorry about your luck.
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05-18-2011, 09:46 AMMieraGod forbid us SMNs unleashing rage on the NMs he's trying so hard to kill, it would lead to another "OMGWTFBBQ NERF SMN THEY KILLING MY NMZZ" thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
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05-18-2011, 09:49 AMArlan
Yes please.
I so agree with OP here. I want the Delay for BP on summoner to increase. -
05-18-2011, 10:05 AMKorpgI mean, they aren't supposed to be able to resummon their avatars right after they died. That is beyond the game mechanics!!! We should make it so there is a penalty for any SMN to resummon their avatar, like they can't summon for at least 20 minutes. That would make it fair for DRG and PUPs out there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Miera
/sarcasm -
05-18-2011, 10:13 AMArlan
I actually thing PUP and DRG shouldn't have that restriction of 20min wait to summon pet again. Kinda pointless.
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05-18-2011, 11:21 PMGlamdringAgree with you about dragoon, wyvern is kinda integral to the job. Pup can summon every minute however thru Deus Ex Machina, but it's a version that needs to be healed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlan
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05-19-2011, 04:56 AMAirget
For Bloodpact delay to increase the amount you can decrease your wait time by what if they made an "avatar's favor" for the melee side of Summons, where the longer you keep it out the more -bp delay you get up to 10 seconds. The trick then would being able to keep your perpetual cost in check so that you don't have to unsummon your avatar as well as keeping your avatar alive.
Wyverns are kind of a messy situation but even though they may be squishy they do offer the ability to be a healing ally when used by DRG that know how to use'em properly. As a DD DRG can hold it's own pretty well to without the wyvern but the wyvern does offer a good support to the DRG, with the ability to suppress their Enmity DRG can dish out a lot of dmg without catching the mobs attention allowing them to be more reckless. In the case with how DRG is set up as a now they are like a hit and run kind of job, going in with heavy strikes then backing off before the enemy notices the damage they've done.
For PUPs, I think Deus Ex Automata is a double edged sword. While one may be able to call their automaton again I believe their potential to overload is greatly increased so while they may be able to to recall them faster it doesn't mean they are gonna be in working order or reliable as the 15 min recast one.
In a sense all the "pet" jobs have 1 aspect going for them even DRG, they have the potential of dishing out damage without fear of being in any danger themselves. A PUP can have their automaton dish out a good bit of damage alongside them and if it dies they can either recall it or wait on the other timer. BST have access toa wide variety of powerful jugs so if they stay away from engaging they can easily keep themselves out of danger by calling on another ally. A DRG can supress their enmity as well as lower their enmity with the help of their wyvern allowing them to dish out a good bit of dmg without fear of being the target of an enemy attack. Finally all SMN have to fear is keeping an eye on their MP and staying a good distance away from the mob so they can recall their pet when needed.
I think while people would like changes to be made you always have to look at things from all directions, when you see pet jobs their greatest strength in a sense is survivability. As long as you pay attention to your surroundings you never have to worry about dying or can even add more damage by engaging the enemy excluding SMN.
But ya, it all comes down to flexibility as a SMN you have BP for melee and defense, where it did use to be on one timer. You have access to /whm /sch /rdm sub depending on your preference allowing you to be supportive to the other DD to keep them alive so they can continue to dish out dmg. So while you may not be happy with the amount of dmg your pet is doing you can at least feel good that you have the ability to assist others with their dmg potential by keeping them alive or even supporting them with enhancements. -
05-19-2011, 05:50 AMGlamdringit is, but the chance of overload is no worse, it's simply that the overload rate is almost 100% on any freshly summoned or zoned puppet. However, their damage is just as high, it simply doesn't have any boosts that would apply from active manuvers. Fixes fairly quickly in Abyssea via regen, refresh or both Atmas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airget
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05-19-2011, 07:28 PMPanthera
I think the idea or each pet having its own BP delay is a fair one. They would have to take the time to resummon, position the avatar and do a BP again, so it's not like they can completely spam BPs and MP.
I don't think Summoner was intended to be a Zerg-style job like Blue, but standing around and waiting for a one minute ability to come up is just plain boring, and consequently bad design. Summoners just don't have anything to do in the mean time! that's related to their main job,anyway.
The one minute delay is too much, but being able to spam BPs on an expendable target is a bit much. Each pet having its own timers is a good compromise. -
05-19-2011, 07:45 PMLeonlionheart
SMN gets a giant MP pool, and perpetuation can be put to 0/tick iirc, (Halved by hands+2 and +2 body/feet would make it 0/tick without even needing a perp- staff) yet is forced to only use it twice every 45 seconds, assuming you even have a use for blood pact: ward.
Now making every avatar have its own BP delay would be somewhat OP too, since people would just switch from Shiva to Garuda to Ramuh and cycle those around to do almost equally awesome damage.
But they have this MP pool and more innate refresh than anyone else... maybe they should have access to more useful spells? Although that would break the mold of SMN I suppose...
Reducing BP delay to 30s is a quick fix.
Likewise they could buff BP damage to compensate for the huge loss of DPS compared to any other job. Or at least scale it more correctly to make it higher than at least a COR, who is a buff job similar to SMN yet can easily out damage SMN. -
05-21-2011, 12:50 AMRazushuThe lower delay would work better because it would fix both sides of smn DD and supportQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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05-21-2011, 06:56 AMMalamasalaSE wanted PUPs and DRGs and BSTs to keep their pets alive. SMN needs to cycle their own so it ended up with a different system. I still think 20 min is just fine... but they should be possible to cast cure on, as well as be included in curaga spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlan
I still don't quite get SE's math. If they allow 80% haste, why do they only allow -15 sec? A BP is a WS from pet. We should be allowed to do it as often as a melee. If melee can WS in 20 seconds, we should be able to reach 20 sec BP timers.Quote:
don't think Summoner was intended to be a Zerg-style job like Blue, but standing around and waiting for a one minute ability to come up is just plain boring, and consequently bad design.
People would complain it is unbalanced with hate free fast damage, but they need to observe that it is both MP bound and only counts if we actually out-DD other DDs. Nobody cares if you got 90 points of hate if someone else has 100 points, because that is the only one you'll see get hit.
The only issue in this game is spamming many jobs, like 18 SMNs, to get large damage safely and fast. Solution? Well, add 3 seconds BP delay per SMN in alliance. 18 SMNs? Well your BP delay is 20 + 3*18 = 66 seconds.
It is just sad that SE lets fearmongers run around and hype up the danger of having 18 SMNs burning mobs with any changes to the job. You have to make 1 SMN work on its own before you worry about people abusing the system. And when people abuse it, add restrictions to GROUPS not to individual jobs. -
06-04-2011, 06:27 PMRazushu
SE could almost completely fix the job if they further broke up our Bloodpact categories into say Damage, Buff, Debuff and Healing and gave us the lower Blood Pact delay cap of 30 seconds
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06-04-2011, 06:50 PMNaria
Lowering the bp timer cap would be very appreciated.
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06-05-2011, 04:09 AMZetonegiLowest it can get is 1 and +2 hands don't work like carby mitts, they halve it after all other perp- is applied(IE if perp would be 10mp/tick it would be 5 instead).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart