Dual weild

hurry up and give thf dual weild to the same lvl as dnc already, while your at it add subtle blow again same lvl.

Or just tell us the reasons you believe this is imbalanced. I'll be fine with either.

i think that its more imbalanced that dnc has it over thf.. dnc can heal them selves.. debuff and etc.. they dont need the subtle blow.. thfs need it bad! and dnc evasion is practically on par with thf with the abilities.. we deserve the subtle blow and duel weld over dncs :x we had been waiting way longer then dancer too..

Even a BLU has more native DW than a Thief. Someone at SE really has a love affair going with DNC and THF seems to have been a forgotten relic.

We still outdamage Dancers. ;)

From someone who only plays both DNC and THF equally I must say that the two jobs are pretty balanced as they are. Yes THF only has DW2 (DW3 with /nin) but triple attack rate (especially with gear/atmas) pushes THF forward in the TP gain department. Not to mention higher dagger skill and much MUCH higher evasion (my DNC can't even come close unless I throw on a bunch of gear and I'm STILL behind THF's eva), and not to mention that sexy AF3+2 that can add a ton of damage to Triple attack procs. So yeah, THF still has some really good advantages over DNC as it stands now. The reason that DNC needs more DW is because it HAS to cure, and use steps, and all that other stuff which of course slows down damage output and so on.

I do agree with one point though...THF seriously needs some subtle blow....

I want to know why they gave DW IV to DNC and not to thf, then left thf with DWI

hey guyz but you can still get DW III on /nin -.-

That would be my argument on giving DW IV to thf, if you are going to give a job a trait, the trait progression needs to outdo anything that is granted off a sub. If you are not going to do that, it is a waste of time to grant such a trait.

Most likely its because of using THF as a subjob. I remember a while back SE saying in an interview that they wanted people to experiment with diff subjobs and implied that they didn't want THF to be one of them (mostly due to 2handers using it for SAWS). That coupled with the DNC job being designed to be used primarily as a SJ first is why it has DW tiers at earlier levels.

Because of this, I totally see THF getting DW 3 and 4 the next 2 level increases since it was given DW 1 and 2 on the last 2. Sucks that we have to wait that long, but in the end it will work out.

Kalima, I am the same as you are I Love my THF and simply Adore my Dancer! I play them both equally. My Thf can deal more dmg in abyssea but dnc last alot longer. I am just happy Thf finally has the DW ability instead of having to stick with /nin or /dnc 24/7 for the ability. When i first noticed it i went /sam and got two of my friends killed with the tp dmg output i was doing with TA and SATA. It woudl def be nice for thf to have moer SB bc frankly my thf with capped haste + is wicked

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Originally Posted by Pesh

We still outdamage Dancers. ;)

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Sadly, no. Having leveled both, I can say my Dnc easily out DD's my thief, and can cure itself to boot. Both jobs have near perfect gear. Dnc just overwhelms my thief in so many ways, but never the one way that matters: Treasure Hunter.

Not Trolling, not picking a fight, I love both jobs, typically play Thief more.

Edit: Saw the post further down. I find my Dnc to be more evasive than thief personally, they get a potent native Evasion bonus too, and a lot of their standard gear has evasion on it, where thief tends to stray from Evasion in lieu of more attack rate. Iirc the last time I did the numbers I think my thief only had something like 15 more evasion than my Dnc.

Not wanting to go too far off topic, but between DNC and THF, a DNC easily either out-performs or matches a THF in every category except Treasure Hunter.

THF has a natrual advantage in Eva as pointed out, but you have to remember that you can only have so much evasion. A mob will never have less than a 20% chance to hit you. A DNC doesn't have to out-do a THF's Eva, they just have to get it to that point - which they can easily.

They out-damage a thief. You have to match like with like. Saying stuff like "their triple attack is even better with atma!" is facetious. A DNC can load the same Atmas. So a THF only has a +10% triple with max merit, which equates to 20 extra swings per 100. This is roughly equal to haste samba's collective bonus. Also, the AF+2 armor's triple bonus activation with max armor on is a 5% chance of a 10% chance (up to 30% if you stack atmas and gear). Versus the DNC AF+2 bonus which is at best a 10% chance of a 100% chance. (Since a DNC will always have a samba activated). That bonus ends up being much larger than the one THF gets.

Add on top of this that a DNC can natively heal better than even a SCH or RDM, stun and employ dmg reduction, there isn't even a contest between the two. All THF gets is TH and with the latest update, we have shown exactly how worthless large TH bonuses are.

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Edit: Saw the post further down. I find my Dnc to be more evasive than thief personally, they get a potent native Evasion bonus too, and a lot of their standard gear has evasion on it, where thief tends to stray from Evasion in lieu of more attack rate. Iirc the last time I did the numbers I think my thief only had something like 15 more evasion than my Dnc.

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THF has 20 more skill and 25 more straight eva over DNC not including merits/CP etc. I don't know about you, but when I solo an NM on DNC then solo it on THF I just notice a huge difference in evade rate.

As far as damage goes, well all things considered DNC really can pump out some good numbers. With the right buffs I can ride my presto/step/RF timers and throw out a solo darkness SC every 30 secs or so. But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF? I honestly couldn't say.

But at the same time, it's absurd to think about such things lol...aside from a few tweaks here and there I'm pretty happy with both jobs.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Sadly, no. Having leveled both, I can say my Dnc easily out DD's my thief, and can cure itself to boot. Both jobs have near perfect gear. Dnc just overwhelms my thief in so many ways, but never the one way that matters: Treasure Hunter.

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I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill), we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time, and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage. I'm sorry, but in a damage over time race, again I've yet to meet a DNC that isn't more than just a prancing wannabe THF.

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Originally Posted by Kalima

But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF?

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For the record, wouldn't "optimal DNC" be a "Twashtar DNC"? And other than Homam and the AF3 sets, what optimal gear does THF90 get that DNC90 doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Pesh

I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

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I've parsed both, with the gear I have, and if I'm not tanking on thf or healing on dnc, they're about the same, over time.

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Originally Posted by Pesh

We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill)

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Not notably, especially with what Atma does to everyone's numbers - and I've parsed it using the same daggers and atma.

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Originally Posted by Pesh

we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time

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True, DNC gets 15% less Triple Attack than what THF gets from AF3 and job traits. But DNC can pop up a lot of Double Attack.

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Originally Posted by Pesh

and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage.

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DNC's AF3+2 is also built to augment our damage - namely, it occasionally doubles the damage of a hit when a samba is up. Which, unless they're Fan Dancing, is continual for a DNC.

teal deer? I'd be really surprised, due to the game-bending effect of atma and due to the sheer amount of common gear, if THF was actually that far ahead of DNC on damage. Is it a problem? For DNC, no. For THF? Kinda, yeah.

Thief should have had native subtle blow a very long time ago. It's rediculous that it never got it.

Who cares if Dnc or Thf is better than the other? You should use this forum to talk about thief's strengths and weaknesses. You don't need to compare it to Dancer to do that. By all means compare their trait differences, but there's no point arguing about which is the stronger DD.

I'm not surprised at all at how this thread became about DNC vs THF. DNC started trouncing on part of THF's territory/playstyle pretty early on after it was introduced.

THF's evasion made it pretty unique and a decent solo'er. DNC totally destroyed that aspect of THF overnight (in the sense that it was much better at it). NIN didn't suffer as much, since it could sub DNC with little sacrifice. I just hope that THF's durability does get a boost so that a THF subbing DNC would capable of similar things as DNC mains are now. Even better if THF's could maintain the safety of NIN sub and have unique ways of recovering and avoiding damage.

An obvious addition:
Perfect Evasion or Perfect Parry (ala Perfect Counter)

Perhaps not as obvious, but a personal favorite:
Better Bloody Bolts. I always felt like THF Marksmanship was given up on. It hasn't had new bolts in ages. Bloody bolts recover pathetic amounts of HP compared to huge HP pools we've gotten used to since Abyssea. The amount afaik is modded by VIT, which is a bit odd and not something you'd really want to stack up on over R.acc. Something in the range of 250 HP per shot would seem fair. The current total delays are already comparable to Curing Waltz3.

250HP recovery per shot is rediculous and not comparable to a Waltz at all. Waltz costs 50% TP to use. That's about 5 attack rounds depending in your Dual Wield reduction and Store TP. That'll probably take around 15 seconds if you have a good haste setup and dont stop to cast any spells or use any JAs in the mean time. IT also then uses up that 50% TP.

A thief uses an xbow with either 216 delay (Ziska's) or something similar up to 288 delay. In that same time frame, a thief with said Xbow can make at least two shots. That would recover 500HP for free. Not only that, it would also make you do over 500 damage to the mob in two shots. It would also give you TP. That is completely overpowered.

250 HP wouldn't really be overpowered imo, considering it slows your damage down a lot. In the time it takes you to get two shots off (including the delay while aiming and after the shot) you would do a lot more damage with melee swings. You could prolly do 4 rounds in that time, 6~8 probably depending on your magical haste. And considering you can do over 1k damage in a single round, it's simply a trade off between damage and health. And 250 HP per shot still doesn't mean much for mobs that THF has trouble tanking regardless. Namely AoE damage mobs. Not to mention you can't cast shadows while aiming, again including a 1~2s, which just means taking a risk of taking even more damage, something that DNC hasn't, cause JAs are instant.

THF vs. DNC is a sad argument imo. Because, as it is right now, DNC has an edge, which, added to their overall versatility, makes THF kinda seem like DNC-1, abused only for TH. Not saying it's a bad job, it still performs very well for its tasks (and it does in fact a lot higher evasion, so much that it's capped on almost all NMs, without needing specific gear or Atma). It's just hard not to be jealous at all the buffs DNC has been getting, while THF seems to have pulled the short straw.

Which is why I suggested that they do something about Steal/Despoil and Mug, make THF more useful in other areas, areas it was intended for originally.

On the topic.. THF should have always had the Dual Wield ability, as does WAR imo. Not even for any gameplay reasons, just cause it seems appropriate.. THF and WAR both sound like classes that should be allowed to carry two weapons. WAR possibly rather low tier, THF rather high. That's just my opinion though, would have always liked that.

I've still never been able to wrap my head around the logic of a dancer wielding one weapon, let alone two.

As a THF my issue with our native dual wield was never so much in comparison to DNC as much as it was just insulting to start with. The high level, the odd level number and the limited tier of the whole thing just screams that it was an after thought tacked on trait instead of something thought out and truly designed for THF. I'd have rather we received a more useful trait than a gimp dual wield.

DNC and THF have their own advantages... DNC is good soloing when THF cant really (due to lack of heals and eating up large spells like -GAs). Don't add bolts, cause they are time consuming, and you cant even drain some mobs.

But what i can tell you is just add a healer to a THF and it will be no way it can be beaten. So far in Abyssea, only a WAR and a NIN which i know can out-damage me, and both using uber equipment (including full AF+2 and Trail weapons @ 85).

My layout (atma/equip/merits) allows me to do a WS every 15-20 secs; with Evi ranging from 1k-4k depending on the mob, and i dont have full AF+2 yet neither Twasthar.

How can you beat that??? i doubt Dancer can...

As of native Dual Wield... /NIN is the best friend of a thief... shadows are life savers, so id say its fine like right now.

But really, SE needs to drop some Subtle Blow into THFs... its ourageous the way i feed TP to mobs >.<

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Originally Posted by Pesh

Between VV/RR/Apoc.

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Errr keep using RR no doubt and Apoc has it's merits as well but if going for straight DD set up idk if I would use it. But for sure replace VV with either Dark Depths or Gnarled Horn. With either of those you should be able to increase critical hit rate up to about 80%. And depending on the situation I would exchange Apoc (most likely if tanking), VV (very nice DD atma of course) and dread (If TH is your main concern). Just my suggestion but feel free to ignore me.

Now for getting back on topic and staying out of this stupid DNC vs THF debate that has no place in this thread... Getting some native subtle blow on THF would be absolutely amazing and something SE should really consider giving us. But only if they give us subtle blow IV or higher other wise it is just a wasted and pointless trait.

Why is there so much call for subtle blow? With the way Agi reduces monster TP gain now, I really don't see a reason to ask for it.

In related logic: giving thief "just any ol' dual wield" does one thing that's more valuable than I could ever begin to explain, when I change jobs to say, blm sub to warp and back to nin, I dont' have to make it all the way out to the field and start fighting before I realize I forgot to put on my offhand... Would I have liked that luxury earlier? sure.

Personally I am at the point where any job that natively/typically(Twilight Belt jobs) uses 1-handed weapons should get native Dual Wield, and have it progress competitively to align with the bonuses the 2-handed jobs now possess.

Oh look, another QQ thread.

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Originally Posted by Yarly

Oh look, another QQ thread.

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Oh look, another person upping their post count by contributing absolutely nothing...

Thief gets: Triple Attack (10%), Dual Wield I, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, 13 Dagger Skill, Feint, Conspirator

Dancer gets: Saber Dance, Dual Wield IV, Haste Samba

Generally in this matchup I would say that Thief comes out ahead, especially if the Dancer is attending other duties besides offense.

However this match up is closer than it should be. Dancer is not supposed to be a solely offensive job, and given that I think it's damage output shouldn't be nearly as close to Thief's as it is. When Dancer was first introduced it was pretty well balanced. However it was given numerous damage related buffs and what has made so close to Thief is their innate level of DW they were given. Dancer having native DW IV gives them the ability to use /WAR and not give up any delay reduction. Thief having only DWI restricts them to staying /NIN.

I think Thief should get DW IV, or the two jobs should both get DW III. There should be a decent offensive difference between the two jobs and the best way to accomplish this would be to equalize Dual Wield and keep Thief's other offensive abilities intact to provide that edge.

Alternatives to adjusting Dual Wield include adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack timers to be significantly lower (30~ seconds vs. 60). At the haste levels the game is played at now their timers are far too high. Right now the skill difference is insignificant in the majority of situations. Even against more evasive mobs I think we need to be at natural A+ with Dancer staying at natural B+ before skill really becomes a deciding factor.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Oh look, another person upping their post count by contributing absolutely nothing...

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This.

Also, THF can solo quite well actually, depending on the mob of course. AoE heavy mobs will kill you fast, however all others are very easily soloable. I rarely get hit at all, and the occasional AoE can be either cured with temp items, or even better get one Regen Atma (Mounted Champion for highest Regen value or Vicissitude for some extra MDB). That way THF can easily solo many NMs in Abyssea.

Also, just one Regen Atma allows a THF to constantly kill regular mobs without shadows. I was able to solo Dom Ops to the point where I would get TEs like crazy, with never capping pearl/azure before the fight, instead just getting pearl from kills and azure from chests. THF's solo capabilities are really great with the right setup, sure you have to sacrifice some damage with a Regen Atma, but still they are able to dish out quite a bit.

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Thief having only DWI restricts them to staying /NIN.

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Not to nitpick but it keeps coming up in this thread...you guys do know that THF got DW2 in last level increase right?

Of course still have to sub /nin and not as good as DNC's DW4...but following the trend we probably will see DW4 by 99...

God I been fighting to urge to continue the Dnc vs. Thief thing but it IS relevant.. And I apologize in advance for continuing this line of conversation. With that shaky apology in hand I continue:

Two words: Wild Flourish...

Not only do Dancers get the awesome ability to skillchain with themselves, they get the added boon of a native skillchain bonus to boot. In Abyssea anyways, I toss out a Evisceration for 2,600-ish that's followed by a transfixtion for 1,700... every single minute.

And the only reason I even thought Dnc worth mentioning in the first place is I can solo shit on my dancer that I just, for the life of me cannot kill on my thief. And ironically, it's not because of the cures, as I dont' tend to use them, as they are just not needed. One reason is Fan Dance mitigating something on the order of 90% of the damage of an attack, this is great for attacks that remove shadows, or go through shadows. So an attack like say, Iktomi's Sickle Slash that goes through shadows, where my thief might take a 1k+ swipe to the face, my dancer laughs off a 40 or so damage bonk to the noggin.

Take those points and add the combined abilities to lower crit defense, defense, evasion, etc, it's really not hard to start to piece together why I had originally said what I said.

It's by no means a slight on the thief job whatsoever. As I prefer thief. The differences are null in the presence of any kind of healer. Save for the main difference that being I'M GOING TO GIT ME SUM LEWTZ! Which in the end is why Thief > Dnc.

If you get a Thief AND a Dancer... well then, you're just livin in fat city, as the benefits dancer brings to the tabel makes the thief shine more too, and vice versa. TH, Haste sambas, cure, Feint, SA, TA, fully backed by shadows, and all steps... It's 500% win.

if they gave us dual wield IV, we would still have to sub ninja. they should give thief an ability on a timer that allows us to parry the next 3-4 attacks, maybe 2 traits. so that we can sub something else.

Correction.

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Originally Posted by Gredival

Thief gets: Triple Attack (20%)**, Dual Wield II*, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, 13 Dagger Skill, Feint, Conspirator

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**empy +2 head and triplus dagger are both very easy to get you should be sporting at least 13-17% triple attack, 20% comes from epeen ring added.

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Originally Posted by Gredival

Dancer gets: Saber Dance, Dual Wield IV, Haste Samba, Fan dance, No Foot Rise, the move that allows them to get near 100%tp back when merited so they can self skill chain, Presto(sp?).

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bolded for important things left off. Dnc also get a ridiculous amount of access to large amounts of stp along with their haste gear where as stp gear thf would/could wear would be just hurtful.

What could be done to give THF some more durability is to give THF an ability similar to the aura steal trait that steals a mobs HP. This would have to be on a separate & lower timer than steal/despoil to be useful but it would solve the problem of unbalancing bolts.

SE definitely needs to give THF subtle blow but please don’t start us on tier 1 at level 91+ that'd be useless.

Regarding DW I'd say SE is just thinking of how jobs will be balanced at level 99 when THF should -I hope- have natively higher DW than we'd get from any sub, sucks we have to wait & be stuck /NIN until then tough.

The difference in tiers THF gets vs DNC will therefore probably narrow at 99 & is probably something SE is using to lift DNC DD up so it stays relevant against other jobs such as THF. Considering all the other buff they get and are likely to get in the future I think it's unnecessary as most if not all the composite jobs as I like to think of them such as DNC, PUP, SCH etc. that have abilities over a range of other jobs territories are already powerful enough though I'm probably just QQ'n because they're taking a little of the shine off my THF, MNK & BLM lol.

i know every has different set up for their thf's. but my thf out dmg's most dd's easy. dont get my wrong dnc/nin is a beast but i solo same mobs without even getting hit on thf. and kill them faster. you also get DW on boomerang which helps. i have soloed almost all my seals on thf and even killed vnm on thf solo. on regular mobs without ws gear i easy 3k on them.

if they made the subtle blow ability timer like 30 secs it would be nice.

if THF got DWIV, They would still be confined to /NIN for Tanking, But for the DD aspect, They could open their Possibilities. Even Dual Wield 3 Would erase the need (in terms of Damage, not survivability) of /NIN.

I also like the idea of a "Perfect Parry" Ability, similar to Perfect Counter, That would allow THF's to Parry the next 1-2 Attacks. Adds Survivability, While lacking in productive DD category, It would be welcomed in my eyes.

And While i know THF is a beastly DD, I can still admit we fall behind when compared to a competently geared "main" DD, Like a WAR, or a DRG (</3 You Drakesbane). We sure dish out a Frick-ton of DPS as well as feed minimal TP, and if we lose out to those DD, Its never by much, but we're far from the top ;o.

What i like most about my THF is the fact i can low-man with my friends so easily, I'll Tank, DD, and Heck, Stick TH6+ on it while I'm at it. I really like what THF has become because of Abyssea =.=a

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

if THF got DWIV, They would still be confined to /NIN for Tanking, But for the DD aspect, They could open their Possibilities. Even Dual Wield 3 Would erase the need (in terms of Damage, not survivability) of /NIN.

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Depends on the mob really. Because I'm a cheapskate, and shihei price is skyrocketing, I tried to see how good I'd do without shadows and I found, extremely well. There's only a few mobs with devastating moves/attacks that are worth using shihei on, which means even for most tanking needs /WAR would do just fine. Sure, occasionally would still need to /NIN it up, but I'd be ok with that.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I also like the idea of a "Perfect Parry" Ability, similar to Perfect Counter, That would allow THF's to Parry the next 1-2 Attacks. Adds Survivability, While lacking in productive DD category, It would be welcomed in my eyes.

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Yeah, that would be a great addition, especially if those parries would allow skillups.

I'd rather have something like Martial Arts or Hasso for daggers than native DW because THF is almost always going to need to sub NIN anyway.

That, and SA should be changed back to how it originally worked (you only needed to be out of sight of the mob). TA and SA timers also need to be cut in half for main job THF.

If DNC gets Evasion Bonus and our exclusive dagger WS then THF should at least have Accuracy Bonus.

I agree with thf getting DW and subtle blow, thf has deserved atleast one for a long time.

Not even thinking about some of the gear options we have now, THF/WAR, with Dual Wield 3, would have insane TP gain. Double Attack (10% activation) + Triple Attack (5% base or up to 10% with merits) + DW3 (Delay -25%) is starting to get crazy enough. Add in say Twilight Knife + Triplus Dagger, Raider's Bonnet +2, Raider's Belt, Assassin's Poulaines, Epona's Ring, Brutal Earring, Raider's Earring, Homam Corazza (I'm ignoring Haste gear mostly for simplicity off the top of my head here) and now you're up to Quad. Attack (3%) + Triple Attack (23% - Only theoretical here as I can't test this since I'm missing several pieces of this gear set) + Double Attack (13%) and with Raider's Boomerang you're up to -28% delay with DW3. Now since I've heard there's a Triple Attack cap (seen 10% and 15%, but I'm not anal enough to try to test and measure which or if it's true or not), but caps don't necessarily happen inside Abyssea with Atma, I'm going to assume they still felt all of this would be a bit too much.

I think there's also a mantle with Double Attack +2% or something we can equip, but it's Rare/EX and I can't even remember the name at the moment, but even if there is a Triple Attack cap that we can hit, it's still kind of nuts.

I started FFXI as a THF, and it was my first 75. It's been my favorite job for years. It hurts to admit this, but I don't use it anymore unless I, or my group, needs TH.

I have both THF and DNC geared solidly, and my DNC just embarrasses THF. DNC is extremely sturdy in solo and group situations. THF needs support for cures/haste and party members for SA/TA in order to really deal damage. DNC doesn't rely on positional JAs to deal damage, and DNC needs far less support to thrive: Saber Dance, Haste Samba, and self-cures come to mind. Unless THF wants to swing as slowly as a DRK, they need outside sources of haste (I'm not kidding...THF attacks so slowly in comparison to DNC). DNC's AF3+2 set bonus is better, and DNC can generate tons of TP through JAs for more weaponskills and self-skillchains.

What does THF really have aside from TH? Higher dagger skill and evasion skill? Accuracy/Attack is easy remedied through food, and let me know if SE removes evasion Kilas from the game. THF does make better use of Twashtar, and aside from TH, I can't think of much more that they have going for them.

It's clear that SE has never really known what to do with THF. I'd like to play it more, but unless TH is needed, DNC is a stronger job.

DNC due to its accuracy bonus traits actually has more acc than THF with dagger <_>

And yeah, SE is utterly clueless when it comes to THF. Stick everything they should've got on DNC and then some.