In an effort to slow down the ridiculous rate at which COR consumes my gil, I'd like to know if there are dice I can just avoid completely that never get used. I don't really see myself using the subtle blow roll in the near future.
Useless rolls
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05-04-2011, 12:53 AMHotsumeUseless rolls
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05-04-2011, 02:19 AMWenceslao
Pet related ones, I in 4 years of COR career, had never used a pet related roll once, really, never, i finf it useless, teh other ones depends on situations, ones are used more often than others but used, but pet roll never, I know this may vary between other CORs but imo puppet's, beast's and crachen's roll are useless.
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05-04-2011, 04:00 AMCallicantzaros
The pet rolls once upon a time had there uses when it came to some HNM where you used more pet jobs to attack the mob rather then strait up DDing it. When I use to do cerb and khim we would have a party or two of just smn with a cor. Right now really don't have to worry about the pet related ones.
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05-04-2011, 04:13 AMYinnyth
BST, PUP, DRG rolls you will most likely never use unless you have friends who really enjoy playing pet jobs. PLD roll is the laughing stock of every roll and has no situation in which it's useful. BRD roll --could-- be useful, but mages always prefer the other rolls anyways. NIN roll you could probably go a year without using, but if you play the game long enough, you're going to find yourself in a situation where the evasion might be exactly what someone wants. DNC roll is fairly weak, and most corsairs never use it... I pop it out when there's nothing going on for a while, but you could probably get away without having that one. BLU roll I've only ever seen used on AV way back in the day when we were still trying for a legit kill on him. MNK roll used to be useful, and still could be under the right circumstances, but no DD will ever ask for it by name because their pride won't allow them to, so you can probably skip that one too.
As far as the new rolls go, allies roll sucks, badly. It only boosts SC damage, and even if you roll XI on it with the AF3+2 gloves to enhance it, it's barely noticable, so you can definately get away skipping that one. Blitzers roll is worthless imo since it's weaker than most other forms of haste and it slows your TP gain to match the delay it cuts. Courser's roll will be useful if they ever do HNMs where a firing squad of RNGs lines up to kill it from a safe distance, but currently it's mostly without use. Though you might use it on yourself at the higher levels to help skillup your marksmanship. I think that's about all of them... -
05-04-2011, 04:59 AMHotsume
Thanks for the replies guys. Was extremely iffy on PLD roll but I honestly doubt I'd ever use it, even in ballista. I'm surprised Blitzer's rolls is worthless but since it lowers delay I can see why.
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05-04-2011, 09:53 PMGreatguardian
Blitzer's Roll really isn't useless, it's just far more situational than a standard Haste buff. You really should have it.
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05-05-2011, 03:54 AMYinnyth
I should have mentioned that there are people who feel blitzer's roll is useful, but I have yet to see the situation in which that occurs myself. Since it lowers TP gain, it'll kill any x-hit setups your DDs are using. Since it can't break the overall haste cap, it will have 0 effect on an all-out zerg for people who have SV marches, haste, full equip haste, and dualwield/martial-arts/hasso. Even though it lowers YOUR TP gain per swing, the monster you're hitting will get just as much TP from you as it would if you DIDN'T have blitzers roll on. Finally, on a jackpot roll of XI, it's ~12.1% delay reduction, which is weaker than victory march with a +2 to marches (bards can get +4 to marches now with gjallarhorn and AF3 gloves, pushing victory march up to 15.6% haste). Hell, jackpot roll on WAR roll with no WAR in the party is 18%. If you get the job bonus via hat or having a WAR in party, it's 24% (twice as powerful as blitzers, plus it can proc during WS, plus it doesn't decrease TP gain, plus it stacks even if you have maxed out haste).
Those are the downsides to blitzer's roll. Granted, I didn't take the effect of haste stacking into account, but that's because its my opinion you either have lots of haste and don't need blitzers because you're already so close to the cap, or you have almost no haste in which case blitzers will be poo. It is not useless, but it has a lot working against it, and I have yet to even think of the situation in which it would be useful over another roll. Well... maybe a party with 6 corsairs. -
05-07-2011, 09:18 PMSeha
If you never used bst and drg rolls there's something wrong. Of course they're situational, but if you don't have them when the time comes you're a bad corsair. Monk roll is situational as well, but there are times when it helps. Only rolls I really never used are gallant, allies, puppet and well courser cause it's not worth the slot imho. All other rolls are useful(well, choral probably only 0.1% chance to use it)but you should have them all(how can you say magus is useless when it can save your party's ass big time?)
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05-08-2011, 01:58 AMHoshi
I use NIN and DNC rolls for soloing weakish stuff like the harder tier magian trial NMs. BLU roll is used quite frequently for tank party in abyssea. I like to put DNC and Tactician's roll on my party while idle or recovering from a wipe. Bolter's roll is a fun toy and great for claiming stuff, esp when stacked with movement speed and mazurka. The last time I used BST/PUP/DRG rolls was in the SMN party on odin and we stopped bringing a SMN party to Odin quite some time ago... I would not say they're worth getting if you're short on gil. If you could only pick 6 rolls I think your best bet would be SAM DRK WAR SMN BLM BLU but rolls are probably situational based on what role you're playing and I'm mostly a tank party COR.
Also as a RNG I prefer SAM + DRK to Courser's... I'd prefer to have variable bonuses that don't randomly change how often I can fire. -
05-08-2011, 04:37 AMDais
Pld roll is far and away the most useless roll. I wish I could get a refund on that die.
The pet rolls have very obvious limitations but are good at what they do. Dnc roll and Sch roll seem to be rarely used but not bad. I have personally never used blitzer, allies, or courser's rolls even once. Courser's would be good if there was ever more than a single rng around tough. -
05-09-2011, 12:03 AMxSylarx
haste samba does the same thgingand people still use if and since it not haste it - delay it stacks with haste, haste samba, and marches
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Originally Posted by Yinnyth
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05-09-2011, 12:08 AMMirage
Speaking of rolls and the cost of buying them. Why are these items only available from an NPC shop? I think most items that are available from NPC shops should also be craftable, or drop from certain monsters.
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05-09-2011, 02:22 AMYinnythSamba counts as job ability haste. I believe hasso and Apocalypse's aftermath also fall into that same category. Blitzer's roll lowers the TP you gain per swing, haste samba does not. Also, 'borrow' is spelled with two 'o's.Quote:
Originally Posted by xSylarx
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05-09-2011, 04:08 AMMirabelle
Blitzer's may lower your TP per swing but it doesn't lower your rate of TP gain. Since the TP formulation favors lower delay weapons, it will actually help TP gain slightly (much like DW). It will throw off XHit builds (just like regain will) but seriously who fusses about X Hits anymore?
For 1H who haven't reached delay cap and are getting high crit%, Blitzers would be a very good roll. Certainly I use it soloing on COR since I only have gear and Samba Haste in that setting.
AS far as useless rolls are concerned: Gallants, Allies, Coursers, BRD are the most useless. Pet rolls are highly situational. NIN, MNK, Magus all can have uses and I wouldn't skimp on them. I'm finding WHM and SCH rolls to be my least used mage rolls as I prefer Fast Cast/Evokers/MAB to be more useful. MACC roll is situational (i.e. you brought along some gimped mages lol). -
05-11-2011, 03:30 AMSaefinn
A lot of it is situational, but I've found I can keep a party happy with:
Corsair's Roll - you're going to have it anyway, I rarely use it, but some people request it and I've used it when there's been a BRD about - they can focus on other buffs leaving space for a Corsair's roll.
Ninja's Roll - Situational, normally flag it when we're struggling with mobs and I figure if it means people get fewer hits, then the extra eva is useful.
Hunter's Roll - ACC+ is always useful, particularly when it comes to using ranged attacks. A bonus for lower level parties because people aren't really geared for accuracy - people still occassionally miss in high level parties, so the fewer misses there are, the more damage is being dealt
Chaos Roll - ATT+ is also useful, people like being able to hit harder
Healer's Roll - Handy Pre-level 40, it'll keep your mages happy in that they don't have to rest as long to restore MP. If your mages are down, even after level 40, it's useful to have.
Evoker's Roll - An asset for your mages and they will love you for it, even if you have a Red Mage in the party because it will stack on top of Refresh AND Sublimation (sublimation will replace refresh) and it will stack on top of BRD songs as well. Refresh is a good thing.
You can survive for a while on those. There's other ones that are useful, but I figure these are pretty cost effective. -
05-11-2011, 04:23 AMGreatguardian
Fighter's, Rogue's, Samurai rolls? Dancer's? Wizard's? Warlock's?
Personally, I have every roll for the sake of completion, but there's no reason at all not to have at least most of them. Corsair is an expensive job, and bullets and cards cost way more than Dice ever will. If collecting rolls is too gil-intensive, Bard may be a better job choice. -
05-12-2011, 06:46 PMPanthera
I've done quests as COR with a BRD friend. We'd stack Mazurka and Bolter's, and we'd essentially be running at Flee speed. I'm pretty lucky about rolling threes (or i just make my own luck with Snake Eye). I have used Pet rolls before, and had them used for my SMN.
But like the man said, if you're having a problem with Gil, Bard is much cheaper. Or do Blu and you won't have to buy any spells! Dancer if fairly cheap, too. -
05-12-2011, 08:14 PMHuevrielPLD roll is actually a lot of fun to use. Yes, a lot of these rolls are situational. I've gotten them all for completion's sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dais
PLD roll helped me a bit when I did NPC fight (COR/NIN vs PLD/NIN. took me 5 rematches) and just about any other time I decide to fight against friends in Brenner.
BRD roll helps when I solo for parry skillups. Spell Interrupt down is nice when I screw up the utsu cast timing.
I use pet rolls plenty of times on friend's PUP, BST, and SMN jobs.
BLU roll is insane and rocks when doing Scouting the Ashu Talif (no BLU on XI and it = Shellra V)
Like many have said before, highly situational. COR is my main and absolute favorite job.
If you wanna skim by with it, then get the main rolls people want and play support. If you wanna give it your all, take up a craft, make your own ammo, use said craft to buy all the die, and before you know it COR won't feel that expensive anymore.
It's nice when you farm just a tiny bit to get mountains of elemental cards.
* 1 stack of Polyflan from the AH (never seen it more than 10K) yields 396 polyflan paper (NQ) (each paper makes 33 cards NQ)
Some light farming and or buying light crystals, and you crank out more cards than you know what to do with at a fraction of the cost.
Bullets are just as nice. don't pay for ammo, just farm and craft everything. (1 hour of farming for roughly 12 to 16 stacks of bullets). Money saved can go into buying ingredients to make shihei and ninjutsu for all the COR/NIN'ing (shadows and elemental jutsu for unresisted QD).
It takes a lot of work to make COR cheap, and a lot of inventory space too. -
05-12-2011, 09:04 PMGreatguardianBolter's and Mazurka don't stack, for future reference. 1 piece of gear + 1 effect at a time, with Ambition atma counting as gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthera
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05-13-2011, 03:27 AMYinnyth
Eh? They changed it? Because bolters and mazurka sure as hell used to stack. Bolters XI and chocobo mazurka was +50% movement speed and it was awesome.
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05-13-2011, 04:26 AMGreatguardianI never knew they stacked at all <_> that's odd, but cool if it's true. Nothing else in the game stacks higher than 1 effect + 1 gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
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05-13-2011, 07:13 AMHuevriel
I totally thought it was based on the icons you had up on the screen. I haven't tried it, but I figured Mazurka (song), Roll (die), Swift Shoes (quickening symbol), Ninja Kyahan at night (no symbol), and Drover's Belt (Costume + Pitchfork +1) would net you 112% but there's most likely a cap for movement speed.
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05-24-2011, 06:03 AMAnza
People saying Dancer's Roll is skippable are crazy. Great downtime roll, great solo or lowman roll (skillup parties? even affects NPCs!). III or XI Dancer's Roll is MASSIVELY efficient healing.
Blitzer's is excellent for single-handers, including a COR/NIN or /DNC dual-wielding daggers/swords. Great for COR/DNC solo, great for Abyssea alliance exp parties with 1h/H2H DDs. As a COR PUP MNK NIN, I'd ideally want Blitzer's/Rogue's on me on any of those jobs in a normal Abyssea exp alliance.
Magus Roll is sometimes very useful in fights against strong nuking NMs. Temenos mega-boss comes to mind, I've used it on several mission fights. And it's super-cheap, no excuse not to have it even though it's situational.
Allies Roll has one powerful situational use - Meikyo Shisui. If you're ever in a fight where SAM 2hrs are a key part, you might kick yourself for not having this one. Not the first priority, as it does cost a bit and use would be rare, but it could come in handy.
Drachen is also situationally powerful for SMN Astral Flow, and is great for unusual PUP nuking situations.
Choral is highly unlikely to be used often, but it's cheap enough that you should get it anyway. Same goes for PUP and BST rolls, which do come in handy occasionally if you're in a party using pets (SMN, BST lowman NM fighting, PUP). Not commonly used, but they're so cheap you might as well have the option.
Scholar's is pretty weak, and is completely surpassed once you get Caster's - at that point you'll have two better mage rolls for any situation.
Gallant's is safe to skip for sure. Probably Courser's too, which I've never used - it's POSSIBLE that you'll run into a ranged damage fight with RNGs and CORs spamming /ra (say, Odin in Einherjar final chamber), but even then you would still be fine pairing Chaos with Hunter's or Tactician's. -
05-26-2011, 04:02 AMYinnythHaving used Allies Roll several times on my corsair in order for me to close a powerful SC on Melo Melo by closing a darkness SC with a 5k damage wildfire, I can safely say that Allies roll does almost nothing. You'll average somewhere around a 15% increase to SC damage, and since SC damage is based on the damage of the closing WS, you're better off using rolls that will just boost BOTH the WS damage, and (by extension) the SC damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
Drachen roll is a little bit underwhelming as well. Rolling XI with DRG job bonus will get your pets 16 MAB (and magic acc), though it's much more likely you'll roll a 7 or 8 without a DRG in the party, meaning you'll get +1 or +5 MAB for the pet. Granted, you might someday find yourself in a party with SMNs spamming magic WSs, or PUPs using the mage body, and in those situations the choice of rolls you can make is somewhat limited. But you're much more likely to find yourself in a situation with RNGs who want courser's so they can make full use of their weapon's aftermath.
To be fair though, there is untapped potential with CORs + SMNs which would require the use of DRG roll. It would be possible to have a COR in a party with 5 SMNs, have the SMNs astral flow, pop an ether, the COR uses random deal, SMNs use astral flow, pop an ether, COR uses wild card, SMNs use astral flow, pop an ether, cor uses random deal, SMNs use astral flow. It gets even more confusing with more corsairs, but 3 CORs + 3 SMNs would produce even more damage. -
05-26-2011, 08:01 AMAnzaWhat pair of rolls would you suggest that would increase SAM WS damage? Chaos, yes, unless your SAM is already capping attack. Fighter's for a chance of double attack, versus a sure Skillchain bonus with Allies. That's it really. I'd personally probably go Chaos+Allies for a Meikyo-centered strategy, or Fighters+Allies if Atk is capped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
And yes, that doesn't much help the rest of the party. But if it was an NM or mission type fight you could certainly do Allies on the SAM only, Chaos on everyone, then Fighter's or whatever else on the other DDs.
I'll admit it's very situational, but when combined with Sekkanoki and/or Dusty Wings (and stuff like Shikikoyo from a 2nd SAM, mixing in a Meditate, Wild Card reset), a Meikyo Shisui using SAM can fire off a lot of consecutive SCs. All of them getting a COR roll boost is fairly potent stuff. It's not as if we've never seen Meikyo Shisui strats before - Nyzul bosses, Snoll, Tenzen, etc. Wouldn't surprise me to see them again on Voidwatch NMs or some other new stuff.
Does it make the Allies Die worth the price? Maybe not. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it "useless". -
05-27-2011, 04:44 AMYinnyth
It's a bit strange to cater 2 rolls to one strategy which will end in less than a minute when doing so will take you 2 minutes to apply rolls, and 2 minutes to fix them afterwards. Although I have done stranger things in my career as a COR, it's usually because I'm not thinking straight about it. Yes, my general tendancy would be to use DRK+WAR roll for someone specifically using meikyo shisui, especially if the group is larger than just 1 person. With more than 1 SAM, unless they coordinate a very specific SC to use and stagger their meikyos to do it, they're just going to be stepping on each others toes.
The one situation I actually find allies roll to be useful is during a brew. Please don't get me wrong, I don't think any roll completely useless. There is always some bizarre situation you might find yourself in where any roll could be useful. But the original post is regarding which rolls this guy can get away with not buying in order to be a budget corsair. Obviously he's hurting his job by skipping any of them since someday even PLD roll might be exactly what's needed, but he values the gil more than the versatility. So my objective in these posts has been explaining which rolls will be less useful over a corsair's lifetime and why they're less useful so everyone could decide for themselves whether or not they agree.
Granted, the OP already got the answer he came here for, and now it's mostly just becoming a debate over which rolls are acceptable to skip over. In my honest opinion, the answer is "none", but I can understand the need to cut corners for a player without the means to make gil that I have. After all, corsair is fantastic at spending money, but terrible at making it. -
05-27-2011, 05:43 AMHabikiScholars roll is great for blms since their set bonus is based off conserve mp, making it way better then caster's roll in the long run, who wouldn't want to do better dmg over having a shorter casting time and recast. All the rolls are dependant on whos in the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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05-28-2011, 05:13 AMAnzaStill not better than Wizard's/Warlock's. You're basing your argument on Scholar's beating Caster's, but I wouldn't use Caster's either for BLMs. In any situation Scholar's is good for (healer with refresh), Caster's is probably better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Habiki
Also, if you need MP (and with atma or /RDM, that may not even be a concern), Evoker's is generally more MP-efficient than Scholar's - it certainly is before factoring in BLM AF3 set effect, and even then would depend on the random nature of Conserve MP kicking in plus the rate at which the BLM is casting spells.
Evoker's/Caster's on a healer.
Wizard's and either Warlock's/Evoker's on nukers.
SCH roll has some utility, but not enough to ever be in the top 2 in any situation I find myself in.
I haven't had a single reason to use Scholar's since 75cap world, in lv64 to pre-merit level parties. After Evoker's, nothing else really did anything for a healer with refresh who wasn't resting. Evoker's/Scholar's on the healer, two melee rolls on the melees. Even once you hit 75 merits that went away - 1 melee roll, 1 mage roll, Corsair's roll for everyone. -
05-28-2011, 05:29 AMAnzaYou shouldn't need to fix them afterwards. Any fight you're basing on a SAM or SMN 2hr strategy should end in fast victory or equally fast defeat. As for your other comment, you also don't want any SAM stepping on each other's toes - if you have multiple SAMs, they should be taking turns 2hring regardless of what buffs the COR is putting on them. Part of the strategy is NOT interrupting the self-SCs, which add significant damage to the entire 2hr. This was common practice in Nyzul Isle back in 75cap days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
Don't need 2min to apply rolls either. Allies Roll on SAM, Random Deal, DD Roll #1 on everyone, wait 60 sec if you want and then DD Roll #2 on the non-SAM DDs. Besides, it's not at all hard to stand and get buffs correct at the start prior to engaging for something like a mission fight, pop NM, buffing at a Nyzul boss floor, etc. - waiting a short time to set proper buffs up shouldn't be that unusual.
Certainly a reasonable choice that gives some benefit. I'm not sure I agree that a chance of Double Attack proc that might not happen outweighs a guaranteed SC damage boost though.Quote:
Yes, my general tendancy would be to use DRK+WAR roll for someone specifically using meikyo shisui
And of course, if attack is capped (as may be the case in Abyssea), Chaos isn't doing anything for you.
I certainly think Allies is HIGHLY situational, and I completely understand if someone doesn't think it's worth the money. But there is a conceivable situation where it is the best option. That might never happen for you, and it's a pricey die, so I get skipping it. But it's not "useless".
Gallant's Roll is USELESS. There's NEVER a situation where you'd not be able to find two better rolls. Courser's is bordering on useless for the same reason - even if you did have a RNG-burn setup, something like Chaos/Tactician's will probably win regardless. Scholar's to me is useless other than some situations that will only come up in level 64-78.
It's ultimately a cost/benefit analysis on the situational ones though. Allies, Drachen... they're pretty darn situational (not useless though) AND they do cost a bit, so I see why people would skip them. Some of the other situational rolls (Magus, Monk's, Choral, Beast, Puppet) are also not too common, but the cheap cost of getting them weights in their favor. -
05-28-2011, 06:48 AMNachtIf you do have a rng burn setup, most likely the rngs will have some sort of x-hit build set up, so tactician's is not helping. If they need ACC, hunter/chaos, if they don't courser/chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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05-29-2011, 08:58 AMYinnythDidn't Cerb, Khim, and Hydra all have massive magic defense? I thought the meikyo spam with wing was just powerful because SAM could unleash 7 WSs before the enemy got 1 off, and because sam was just stupid strong back then. Back when I used to do it with my static, our sam just used gekko 7 times- didn't even care about SC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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05-29-2011, 07:24 PMHabikiI agree with you on warlocks and wizards being better but i cant ever see using casters over scholars and thats what i replied to. Evokers is still useful outside abyssea but inside its pointless also scholars is probably better for a blm brewing rather then using warlocks evokers casters or wizards. Then again im not a blm just would think so since your capped on pretty much everything with a brew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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05-31-2011, 03:22 PMNachtFor mages, I've never actually given them anything more than evoker's (or wiz+warlock for blm). More recently, inside abyssea, I don't bother giving them rolls. Melee rolls, then focus on more Wildfires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Habiki
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06-17-2011, 06:10 AMAnza
By the way, I just ran into another situation where Allies Roll is useful. Primeval Brew. Chaos Roll is useless with capped attack, if you're not using a WS that can crit/DA (i.e. any magical WS), that eliminates those possibilities, Store TP and Regain are fairly irrelevant when you're already hitting 50tp/tick.
I brewed Rani on COR with Aeolian Edge - the only two rolls that help are Wizard's and Allies. Self SC with back to back AE (Evisceration -> AE is also a SC, can't recall which offhand). When you're busting out 15-20k WS, the SCs are also pretty beefy and the Allies Roll boost helps increase that big chunk of damage. Killed Rani from 80% in a little over a minute.
Yet again, very situational roll and maybe you don't find it worth 100k+. But not "useless" in the Gallant's roll tier. -
07-22-2011, 04:02 AMAnzaAnd yet another Allies Roll situation I stumbled into last night... KSNM99 The Hills are Alive. The common strat is to do skillchains to pop the turtle out of its shell, then have the mages nuke. Allies Roll is fantastic on your DDs for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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07-29-2011, 10:16 PMMirabelleI disagree, in Abyssea at least. BLM are largely there for Yellow proc. The faster they can get those spells off the better. IF you are nulled, you want your recast time down as well. If I'm in the magic proc party as COR, its Casters and Evokers until proc then Wizards/Evokers. SCH roll is definitely second tier with Healers roll these days. Might be worth it with Brewing, but wth the massive refresh of Brew, I think the Wizards/Warlocks combination would just as easily get the job done.Quote:
Scholars roll is great for blms since their set bonus is based off conserve mp, making it way better then caster's roll in the long run, who wouldn't want to do better dmg over having a shorter casting time and recast. All the rolls are dependant on whos in the party.