Weapom Skill Adjustments: What we have and what we need

*Because the other topic turned into a flame-filled mess between me, Jar, and Afro that spanned over a few full pages, I have recreated the topic and took the proper procedures to make sure I don't get caught up in that childish mess again. I have added a Notes section for any interesting suggestions and who made them, starting with the relevant posts from the previous topic.*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

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Seems many people have gotten through to SE developers in regards to Weapon Skills. So in order to make it easier for them, I wanted to make a topic dedicated to Scythe and Great Sword Weapon Skills. Not just Guillotine, not just Quietus, not just Torcleaver. All of our main ones.

As always, with all of the topics I make, please be respectful towards opinions. Not everyone will feel the same way you do about something, but the fastest way to look like an idiot is to treat someone else like an idiot. So please, be respectful.

Note: There will be people who ignore this and will proceed to completely flame you for your opinion. Don't do what I did and flame back. Instead, completely ignore them and only respond and hold conversations with people who are mature enough to agree or disagree with someone's posts in a calm and grown-up way.

Now then, here are my opinions on the top Weaponskills we have for Scythe and Greatsword, what their problems are and how to fix them without ruining balance.


[SIZE="5"]Scythe[/SIZE]

Guillotine
The Problem: Our only consistently good Scythe Weapon Skill.

The Solution: Adjust one of the other Scythe Weapon Skills so we can have something stronger than Guillotine that we go out of our way to earn.

Insurgency
The Problem: Time-Consuming to get, even without getting the Weapon itself. Delivers a fourfold attack like Guillotine but uses weaker modifiers and has far more inconsistent damage overall, making Guillotine a better overall choice. Requires 300TP to show any real noticeable damage but 3 100TP Guillotines would do far more damage.

The Solution: Strengthen the modifiers and TP damage multipliers in order to make a 100TP Insurgency have damage consistently stronger than Guillotine. Insurgency was crafted to be a pure damage Weapon Skill so it should reflect that.

Catastrophe
The Problem: I personally do not see any other than it requires Apocalypse.

The Solution: I don't recommend any.

Quietus
The Problem: Requires Redemption or Penitence. Damage does not reflect the modifiers and TP effect for the kind of Weapon that uses it and the difficulty to obtain it.

The Solution: Damage should be adjusted to be higher than it currently is. Most of it is in regards to the amount of Defense it ignores. I feel Quietus should reflect the properties of Twilight Scythe, but in Weapon Skill Form.



*Overview: I feel Quietus should be ideal against high defense monsters with defense boost skills and traits while Insurgency should be ideal against everything else. Guillotine has been a nice WS so far, but it's time to move on. Both Insurgency and Quietus should be noticeably stronger than Guillotine by now, especially considering they're quested Weapon Skills.


[SIZE="5"]Great Swords[/SIZE]
Torcleaver
The Problem: It's DRK's only strong Weapon Skill that can keep up with other job Weapon Skills. Exclusive to Caladbolg and it's Walk of Echo's alternate (forgot the name).

The Solution: None. It's a fantastic weapon skill for Great Sword, even if it's the only good one we have.


Scourge
The Problem: Damage and Effect do not reflect the power of the weapon and difficulty to obtain. Basically, might as well just get Caladbolg with Torcleaver.

The Solution: The weaponskill itself needs to be a lot stronger than it already is, though not as strong as Torcleaver. The aftermath effect should offer a stronger critical hit rate as well as a boost to critical hit damage. To further boost Scourge, it should become a critical hit weapon skill so it's own aftermath boosts it's critical damage even further.



*Overview: I think both weapon skills should have their uses so that there is more freedom of choice between weapons. Since Ragnarok is harder to obtain (by a lot), making Scourge a critical hit weapon skill so the aftermath boosts it even more, Scourge should do damage that rivals Torcleaver in the end, yet still boosting normal melee swings.


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[SIZE="5"]Notes:[/SIZE]

*Urteil suggested a Greatsword Weapon Skill that's similar in properties to Catastrophe.
*Rezeak suggested boosts to our magic-based weapon skills such as Infernal Scythe. Also agrees that Insurgency needs a boost.

I had such a beautiful post all typed up!

Catastrophe: Will reclaim it's spot back on top of scythes in my opinion if the aftermath is switched to JA haste instead of gear haste.

Quietus: Make it 2-3 hit and call it a day, there's your guillo replacement. Redemp hits hard, a buffed Q will be a serious rival to Cala.

Guillotine: Use it while farming for Caladbolg, then never use it again.

Insurgency: See guillotine

Torcleaver: 100% worth the work for it, easiest empyrean path to 90, get it and you won't feel the urge to make a thread like this

Scourge: Who cares if you have torcleaver! But for the few that were crazy enough to get a raggyrok, a dmg increase would be nice for it. The crit rate of the gswd and aftermath might be enough to trump Cala, but scourge is going to need a hell of a boost to do it.

COME AT ME

Except with update catastrophe switching to ja haste will work for 1 min when lr isnt up

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vedder

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

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I pretty much agree with all that you said. Our Scythe weapon skills just aren't solid performers outside out old level 60 skill-obtained WS. It's time to have a reason to move away from them. Thats why I want both Quietus and Insurgency to recieve a buff in some form to make them better performers than Guillotine.

personally i'd be fine with a crit mod for insurg. I'd love to see the tests that kirschy could do with it.

The only reason I said the same for guillotine is how they did Raging Rush. Added a crit element, and was easy to do for them. BAM broken ws. (yes even before abyssea)

YES TO JA HASTE FROM CATASTROPHE

Also make the double/triple dmg procs the same as empy aftermath. 30-50%

I still don't think crit damage is what we need. After all, it only really caters to the Razed Ruins atma. Would it be nice? Hell yes. I just think the problem lies mostly in the modifiers and fTP. Look at Insurgency, for example. Like I said, it's a mere .5 damage dealt from 100TP. You'd need 300TP do do the full amount it was designed to do.

I'm not disagreeing but I'm not talking about razed ruins entirely either. With proper gearing RR is war's strongest non empy ws. Yes even outside abyssea, You just need that 50 dex, and drk can do this as well. Especially now with all the gear selections we have. We also get access to stuff like Zahak's mail etc.

Highest base dmg weapons in the game, highest base str. Str/dex gear availability out the ass. Crit mod on guillotine or insurgency would fix our ws phase in and outside abyssea. It would just require some actual effort in our gearsets on our part.

Again outside you just need that 50 dex, which is fairly easy to do now.

why would you want cata aftermath as ja haste when that gimps it after update(assuming lr isnt nerfed a bit)?
I havent used guillo for a long time, but outside of abyss I don't think that other regular ws's destroy it by any means,
and I think that giving us a crit mod to our ws's, just so we can do more dmg inside of it is not what we need..

go back and reread what I typed

honestly the AM on apoc has been backed into a corner hard, ja haste pretty much capped alot(not always but alot) gear haste been capped a long time, aside from usin AM up/down swaps, re-making it as magic haste while nice i doubt it will happen, even more so if the "fabled" abs-speed does get created (/doubt)

Make the haste toward magic cap..

Fixed... and broken.

beef guillo up for those who dont have insurgency, cata or even Quentius.. oh yea Spiral Hell could use some update xD

I like the idea of buffing Insurgency's mods...

I don't think that's a good idea. Guillotine is an old weapon skill and I feel like it's time to leave it behind. Insurgency in design mimics Guillotine, yet it's weaker. It should be stronger than Guillotine in every way. Quietus as well.

Spiral Hell is also pretty lacking, though I don't know if we should bother asking for a boost to that unless it somehow becomes a big, boosted single-hit skill.

I don't really care either way, now that I think about it. I'm just ready to move away from Guillotine as the Scythe Weapon Skill of choice. Even Great Sword was stuck on Spinning Slash until Torcleaver came.

Cata haste needs to stay gear haste or if they want to buff it make it magic haste or if they want to break it go 06-07 on it and make it its own catagory that breaks 80%.

Give greatsword a Drain WS minus haste.

Its stupid that Sword has one, and the only one that DRK has access to is on the relic scythe.

Guillo may be old but still hold dmg in ws they may just go with str mod only instead havin mnd included,just saying.

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse

Guillo may be old but still hold dmg in ws they may just go with str mod only instead havin mnd included,just saying.

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or you guys could not ask for weaponskills that outstage empy and just get unlazy

srsly..

Why not ask for Dark Knight to be renamed to Munchkin while you are at it?

Nyzul WS were ment to fill a hole with their respective job not necessarily be the best WS. In fact the ONLY jobs where the Nyzul WS is clearly better than anything else was DRG and PLD, and that was specifically because DRG WS damage wasn't keeping up with polearm SAMs and PLDs couldn't do enough damage to HNMs to keep hate effectively (well they couldn't after either but hate generation via damage was SE's intention with Atonement)

Atonement: Damage based on Enmity, does same damage to everything. 750 damage is mediocre on pink birds but good on HNMs.

Mandalic Stab: Attack bonus WS for high DEF targets. Gives THF an equivalent to Tachi: Kasha, Spinning Slash, etc.

Drakesbane: SAM is doing more damage with Penta Thrust than DRG.

Tachi: Rana Multi-hit for SAM

Leaden Salute: Decent WS that doesn't depend on weapon DMG or ranged ACC, gets bonus from Quickdraw.

Insurgency: Guillotine that makes Light SC.

Insurgency was NEVER intended to be a new better WS for DRK, it was meant to give them an option on Scythe for making Light.


Anyway, instead of making Guillotine or Insurgency a crit hit, which would be broken with the new Last Resort change, fix Cross Reaper's damage multiplier at 2.0 and make TP=chance of critical hit.

Ukko's Fury Lite for DRK, problem solved.


As for relics.

All relic WS should be changed to "Delivers a critical attack, damage varies with TP" No "chance of a critical hit" they just deliver a crit, always.

All relic WS should do the same number of hits as depicted in the animation (this would balance the 1H and 2H relics as the 1Hs all depict multi hit animations and are lower DMG weapons)

Extra damage proc should be raised to 30%.

Aftermath effects should be increased in potency and duration. In some cases it should be adjusted as well. e.g. Yoichinoyumi's aftermath should have RACC/RATT not just RACC, Mandau should have +40% critical hit rate not +10%, Apocalypse's 10% haste should be non job ability non gear non magical.

All relic WS should be changed to 4.0/5.5/6.5 fTP at 100%/200/%300% TP

Relics that have useless or counterproductive additional effects should have those changed to something useful. (e.g. Mandau's Poison changed to poison/plague with a stronger DOT and no longer wakes mobs)

1H relics should have ACC stat added, 2H relics should have ATT stat added similar to ranged relics.

All relics should have some degree of ignore cRatio on all attacks.


Relics should not be made easier to obtain. Instead they should be made to be worth the effort. They shouldn't just be better, they should be "OMGWTFBBQ!!!ONEONEONE" better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vedder

honestly the AM on apoc has been backed into a corner hard, ja haste pretty much capped alot(not always but alot) gear haste been capped a long time, aside from usin AM up/down swaps, re-making it as magic haste while nice i doubt it will happen, even more so if the "fabled" abs-speed does get created (/doubt)

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Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Why not ask for Dark Knight to be renamed to Munchkin while you are at it?

Nyzul WS were ment to fill a hole with their respective job not necessarily be the best WS. In fact the ONLY jobs where the Nyzul WS is clearly better than anything else was DRG and PLD, and that was specifically because DRG WS damage wasn't keeping up with polearm SAMs and PLDs couldn't do enough damage to HNMs to keep hate effectively (well they couldn't after either but hate generation via damage was SE's intention with Atonement)

Atonement: Damage based on Enmity, does same damage to everything. 750 damage is mediocre on pink birds but good on HNMs.

Mandalic Stab: Attack bonus WS for high DEF targets. Gives THF an equivalent to Tachi: Kasha, Spinning Slash, etc.

Drakesbane: SAM is doing more damage with Penta Thrust than DRG.

Tachi: Rana Multi-hit for SAM

Leaden Salute: Decent WS that doesn't depend on weapon DMG or ranged ACC, gets bonus from Quickdraw.

Insurgency: Guillotine that makes Light SC.

Insurgency was NEVER intended to be a new better WS for DRK, it was meant to give them an option on Scythe for making Light.


Anyway, instead of making Guillotine or Insurgency a crit hit, which would be broken with the new Last Resort change, fix Cross Reaper's damage multiplier at 2.0 and make TP=chance of critical hit.

Ukko's Fury Lite for DRK, problem solved.


As for relics.

All relic WS should be changed to "Delivers a critical attack, damage varies with TP" No "chance of a critical hit" they just deliver a crit, always.

All relic WS should do the same number of hits as depicted in the animation (this would balance the 1H and 2H relics as the 1Hs all depict multi hit animations and are lower DMG weapons)

Extra damage proc should be raised to 30%.

Aftermath effects should be increased in potency and duration. In some cases it should be adjusted as well. e.g. Yoichinoyumi's aftermath should have RACC/RATT not just RACC, Mandau should have +40% critical hit rate not +10%, Apocalypse's 10% haste should be non job ability non gear non magical.

All relic WS should be changed to 4.0/5.5/6.5 fTP at 100%/200/%300% TP

Relics that have useless or counterproductive additional effects should have those changed to something useful. (e.g. Mandau's Poison changed to poison/plague with a stronger DOT and no longer wakes mobs)

1H relics should have ACC stat added, 2H relics should have ATT stat added similar to ranged relics.

All relics should have some degree of ignore cRatio on all attacks.


Relics should not be made easier to obtain. Instead they should be made to be worth the effort. They shouldn't just be better, they should be "OMGWTFBBQ!!!ONEONEONE" better.

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First Most of this i disagree with for varying reasons..

But While relics should get a boost i dont think they need something as massive as what you describe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

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Why would you want to wear an Adaberk now? There's several better TP and WS choices now.

E:body sucks, FStr and Ddex are both capped inside abyssea, and ACC is definatley capped with apoc (is with normal drks using ace's hose) AF3+2 body is win even for apoc. If I had to pick a body for my apoc to TP in that wasnt AF body it would be Grim or Ares.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

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why on earth am i wearing ebody still? I don't need the acc <_<

i was gonna say something in this regard before but figured id wait cause atomic seems fairly smart, glad the vets stepped in though. if i wasnt using bale+2 id be using either timarli (haste) try to lower xhit build (askar/aurum) or buck up an buy a grim(great -pdt str and attack) or rock my ares ft. sadly ebody isnt as usefull as it once was an your looking at a guy who fought 100+fafs and a good 40 hogs trying for one, id still take it if i could but it would only be a trophy piece with the current state of things

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Why would you want to wear an Adaberk now? There's several better TP and WS choices now.

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Nevertheless Apoc lets you drop the +2 Bale Cuirass and haste legs/feet (aces, homam or whatever) and replace them all with something better while maintaining capped haste.

Apoc + Full af+3 for that set bonus ?

Most certainly.

big question though is do they maintain xhit build losing stp from aces feet/goading if they swap those two itmes out. dart? taint?

U need 39 Store tp to 5 hit

/SAM = 15
Rose + Brutals = 5
Raja = 5
Hoard = 4
Goading = 5
White Tath = 2
= 36 Store tp

Choices are....
Carabonara
Use tactical mantle (3% Da loss)
Use Ace's hose (3% Double DMG loss)
Use VV to make up the last 4-6 tp u need

I don't think you'd lose goading

it you're 5 hitting and don't want to be forced to ws in some really weird/stupid gear. Carbonara is the food of choice. (also helps with the AM set problem)

I personally never count on regain for my builds. Stick to the numbers.

Thats what I'm doing. I plan on finishing and maining Redemption until I get Apoc someday, but getting a 5-hit with Redemption while maintaining the AF+2 haste build isn't easy. It's possible if I acquire some small pieces, like Bushido's cape and Attila's Earring, but that'll suck away quite a few stats overall. If only there was one more +3 STP item that a DRK could use that wouldn't have to sacrifice a big piece of gear.

Edit: Oh, duh! I'm a dummy. I forgot about White tahlum! I can use that and the earring so I can keep wearing my mantle. Derp. x.x

Ok! Redemption 5-hit is a go!

i must be over tired, had to reread this 4x just to understand >< lol been crunching numbers too long today

kagato, whats the hit build look like for 5hit redemption?

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Originally Posted by vedder

kagato, whats the hit build look like for 5hit redemption?

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You need 33 more STP as a DRK/SAM using Redemption, which has a base delay of 502.

Assuming you want to still wear +2 Bale Body, Head, and gloves as well as Ace's Pants and Feet, this is the set you need:

Rose Strap: +4
White Tathlum: +2
Brutal Earring: +1
Hoard Ring: +4
Raja's Ring: +5
Goading Belt: +5
Ace's Sabatons: +5
Carbonara: +6

Chivalrous chain: +1
OR
Attila's Earring: +1
OR
Bushido Cape: +1

I personally think you should choose the Chivalrous Chain as your remaining +1 since it still has decent TPing stats. However, if you like the constant refresh from the Bale Choker, go for the Earring instead and have the Bale Earring on standby for WS macros. The Bushido's cape is another option, but Atheling Mantle is way too good to pass up as a TP item, IMO. Still, it's up to you.

Besides, there may be better gear later with more Store TP. Raja's ring may even be augmented through synergy to have a stronger StoreTP state or something, so just go with what you'll be happy with while keeping a lookout for anything that has an extra StoreTP point to make it a full +33 with everything else and the food.

You should be getting 20.1TP per swing this way, according to the calculator.

nice, hows the rebuild? does it drop a hit with your ws gear?

We really need to move away from this "give DRK a crit ws" mentality. The upcoming vit in crit calculations is obviously being implemented to address the razed ruin numbers. I do agree that it would be nice to get some decent non-quest WS, we've been using the same ones for years, but same that I'd rather they fill a niche for that weapon it doesn't have, ie a scythe WS that performs like spinning slash (spiral help with a gekko-esque pdif bonus) or a multi-hit greatsword WS (ever play devil may cry 4, where Nero crashes his sword into the ground repeatedly..?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sedres

The upcoming vit in crit calculations is obviously being implemented to address the razed ruin numbers.

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No, it isn't. If you even read what the devs said, they responded saying it was a buff for players only and will not be applied to mobs.

reading is hard.

you forgot one key piece of gear for a 5 hit build.

tactical mantle. Don't leave home without it!

if you wear a chiv chain, attilla's, or a bushido cape I'll murder you in your sleep!

lol kagato aggro'd a dart! hope it dont link! though he did say he prefered atheling to tact........

crap does this put me on the enmity list?