level 4 skillchain

I commented before on this in a different thread, I feel like it has been forgotten and i really like to know what people think about it.

The reason I want this is to open up more skillchain flexibility with relic/emp ws. I think SE chose the route of making light > light vs a level 4 for some reason.

the problem with light> light or dark>dark is that you will get emps/relic ws that can't skillchain with eachother.

I also dislike when you do light> light property for light sc, it ends there and you cannot continue it, if a level 4 sc exists you can make one more after it.

like:
namas arrow > namas arrow = light, thats it, end key there.

my idea with skillchain void:

Namas arrow > namas arrow > light > blade: Hi = void

now if you take multi sc example:

so say you do tachi:kasha > Tachi: rana > gravtation> savage blade > fragmentation > Tachi: gekko > distortion> tachi: kasha > fusion > savage blade > light > knights of round > light > blade: Hi > void

my skillchain void idea also lets relic/ emp ws skillchainable where before they were not.
Namas arrow <> rudra’s storm = nothing

New:
Namas arrow <> rudra’s storm = void

the reason i call it void is because of other FF game (forget number) used this word to describe the effect of light and darkness clashing.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

the reason i call it void is because of other FF game (forget number) used this word to describe the effect of light and darkness clashing.

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FFXI already uses void to denominate Darkness alone (see Nether Void, DRK JA or Shadowfang Void, dark elementals). If they ever add a Lv.4 Renkei I hope it will be Cosmic Elucidation. Heavy non-elemental AoE damage, now there's a way to fix SCs.

I'd like to see that too though.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

FFXI already uses void to denominate Darkness alone (see Nether Void, DRK JA or Shadowfang Void, dark elementals). If they ever add a Lv.4 Renkei I hope it will be Cosmic Elucidation. Heavy non-elemental AoE damage, now there's a way to fix SCs.

I'd like to see that too though.

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Cosmic Elucidation is an idea I can get behind. Give me Tenzen's fight ending skillchain please SE. It is already in the game and is the only level 4 skillchain I can think of. We simply cannot create it for whatever reason (overpowered? sure, right now, give it to us at level 99).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

FFXI already uses void to denominate Darkness alone (see Nether Void, DRK JA or Shadowfang Void, dark elementals). If they ever add a Lv.4 Renkei I hope it will be Cosmic Elucidation. Heavy non-elemental AoE damage, now there's a way to fix SCs.

I'd like to see that too though.

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it is not a real sc, lest in that sence, there is no aoe sc.

if you use aoe ws then someone else aoe ws, you both need to have the same mob target for the sc to kick in on that target.

I do not know if that fight was a tease to give us level 4 sc but i do not consider it real. he can miss ws though shaddow or w/e so there is no leading up to it then it just happens from taking too long ( from what I seen on you tube)

i really do not know i never failed the fight.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

it is not a real sc, lest in that sence, there is no aoe sc.

if you use aoe ws then someone else aoe ws, you both need to have the same mob target for the sc to kick in on that target.

I do not know if that fight was a tease to give us level 4 sc but i do not consider it real. he can miss ws though shaddow or w/e so there is no leading up to it then it just happens from taking too long ( from what I seen on you tube)

i really do not know i never failed the fight.

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To my knowledge it can't be evaded. It can be survived however (it's ~900 damage), but the fight ends after that regardless.

I know it deviates from the standard. We don't even know if it's really level 4, it's just a very different skillchain. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen though. It could definitely be implemented (as Zyeriis stated, it's already in the game, the mechanic itself along with the animation/calculation), and it would be something new at least. I know AoE isn't always advisable, but personally I wouldn't even mind if it was reduced to single-target for players.

It's debateable whether it would be non-elemental (since Light and Dark are two opposites and cancel each other out, it's currently like this), which would probably be easier to implement, or if it should be all-elemental. That would be a new idea and would require some consideration, but it has some potential imo.

Cosmic elucidation would make perfect sense to add with a new round of weaponskills with the lvl99 upgrade featuring a new element.

While I think this is a good idea, limiting it to relic weapons only wouldn't be all that great.

Because then you will see a lot of people who will go after the gimped versions of weapons that have the latent effect of the relic WSs.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

To my knowledge it can't be evaded. It can be survived however (it's ~900 damage), but the fight ends after that regardless.

I know it deviates from the standard. We don't even know if it's really level 4, it's just a very different skillchain. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen though. It could definitely be implemented (as Zyeriis stated, it's already in the game, the mechanic itself along with the animation/calculation), and it would be something new at least. I know AoE isn't always advisable, but personally I wouldn't even mind if it was reduced to single-target for players.

It's debateable whether it would be non-elemental (since Light and Dark are two opposites and cancel each other out, it's currently like this), which would probably be easier to implement, or if it should be all-elemental. That would be a new idea and would require some consideration, but it has some potential imo.

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I mean he can miss ws to lead up to it...

be the equivenet of:

say you gekko > kasha> fusion> rana > gravitation > gekko > miss > darkness.

to me it is not a real sc, it is just something to go "lol you lost"

korpg there is already "exclusive" ways of scing with relics and emp, this idea just takes ti a step further and allows
relic/emp ws that can't sc to sc able like :

Namas arrow <> rudra’s storm = nothing

New:
Namas arrow <> rudra’s storm = void

Do you consider the double light or darkness opportunity OP? Because that is what i want to be built off of ( that concept)

like i said in OP i think SE did not want level 4 SC back then for some unknowen reason so they made double light/ darkness rules

maybe take out double light/darkness to make room for it? so it seems less "op"? i dont know.

it is not "limited to relic weapons" you have to have a level 3 element like how you need level 2 elements to make light or darkness.

and the only ws that has level 3 elements are emp/relic ws. I think it was one way to make them stand out and why they can do double light or darkness now

I am just saying it is already easy to skillchain light and darkness without the use of relic or emp WSs.

To limit Void to only relic or emp WSs is just saying that only certain people in the game can create that.

I mean, whats stopping the fact that you can create Light WS, then use a Darkness WS like Steel Cyclone to create Void also? Savage Blade > Chain Affinity > Goblin Rush > Light > Steel Cyclone > Void.

Same concept as you mentioned, but you seem to want to limit it to relic/emp WSs only.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I am just saying it is already easy to skillchain light and darkness without the use of relic or emp WSs.

To limit Void to only relic or emp WSs is just saying that only certain people in the game can create that.

I mean, whats stopping the fact that you can create Light WS, then use a Darkness WS like Steel Cyclone to create Void also? Savage Blade > Chain Affinity > Goblin Rush > Light > Steel Cyclone > Void.

Same concept as you mentioned, but you seem to want to limit it to relic/emp WSs only.

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steel cyclone does not have level 3 property. are you saying steel cyclone should be allowed to do double darkness? giving steel steel cyclone level 3 element means steel scyclone > steel scylone = darkness.

like this:

blade:hi > namas arrow > darkness> blade:hi > darkness.

with my void idea :

blade hi > namas arrow > void > blade hi > nothing, start new chain.

so it limits chains in some way, opens others

namas arrow <> rudra's storm = nothing

with idea:

namas arrow <> rudra's storm = void

I really do not understand you, emp/relic already have exclusive skillchain,, the level 3 element allows double light or darkness.

the reason for the "limit" as you put it is to follow current game logic.

level 2 ws > level 2 ws = can be nothing, level 2, or level 3. the order is important with making level 2

gekko > kasha > fusion, kasha > gekko = nothing

rana <> gekko = darkness, darknes is made cuz gravation combines with distortion to unlock darkness.

relic/emp ws have level 3 property, they are light and darkness element

so light <> darkness = void, so emp /relic ws needs to end

you can make a darkness with leve 2 element then use relic/emp ws to end it but ya it is to follow the game's logic.

We brought your feedback about level 4 skill chains to the development team and they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes. Okay, so maybe they didn’t really say that at all. They did however say that this is an awesome idea and would like to look into this for the future. Currently they are planning adjustments to the current skill chains to go along with the level cap increase to 99. After this takes place they will look in to the possibility, but keep in mind that skill chains are something that is related to every job and careful attention needs to given, even more so than individual job adjustments.

I am a Tenzen wannabe

I'd love if they were achieved by a combination of relics mythics and empyrean WSs (or maybe add this as an even higher secret level of SCs so that all players have something new at least at 99). Also, while I managed to get a post close to your attention I know you're looking into tweaking relic WSs, can you please look into Camlann's Torment? I don't think it's right that drakesbane should be better than the empyrean WS, I think mythic and even some empyrean WSs should also be reviewed for buffs.

I had the idea of Camlann's ignoring 50 at 100, 75 at 200, and 100% defense at 300 TP. Keep in mind, Wheeling Thrust already does what I said by ignoring half defense, so I really think it's absurd a weapon as big of a pain to obtain as this thing is (CHLORIS) is getting beat by a normal WS with the same description (in the sense that Camlann's only ingores 10%), and is crushed in damage by the WS we'd already been using forever (Drakesbane).

Really, WSs that stay the same across all levels should go away and offer some kind of rewards for stepping it up. Especially mythic/empyrean ones that you have to build up to 300% for aftermaths.

I really hope I can get a response on this. I don't see why only relic owners should be on the receiving end of buffs, not every empyrean is almace or ukonvasara. And I KNOW many mythics need serious tweaking. An extremely easy starting point for fixing these WSs is just look at which crit and which don't, most that don't probably might need some love, and most that do are the standard for the current metagame.

One last note, we all love Razed Ruins and this isn't an issue related to that nor am I looking for anything to be done to the Atma. Camlann's gets beat by Drakes outside Abyssea too.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We brought your feedback about level 4 skill chains to the development team and they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes.

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Skill-chains were so cool back in the day when I first started playing FFXI. Everybody would setup SC's in the group, no matter what jobs we had. But thanks for the feedback Mr. Moogle. Lv4 SC's will be awesome!

Level 4 Skillchains should instantly warp the person who closed the chain to any random area in the game. Like. on the boat to Nashmau or some dangerous dungeon somewhere far away. :D

Well, I love this idea.

One concern, won't it put Empyreans even FURTHER above everyone else?

Blade: Hi: Darkness -> Ukko's Fury: Light = Void

Light is already completely soloable even without meditate/sekkanoki on WAR and generally doubles WS damage not to mention whatever lucky bastard gets a MB off of it. If this does any more damage you could two-hit Sobek!

On the other hand if it maybe required three people, as in say add a filler skillchain (void) to go something like this: Darkness + Light = Void(0 damage) then you can stack that with another skillchain: Darkness + Light = Void stage 2 = Cosmos!

Maybe give it something more than just damage (Since you really don't need to be doing more damage than most Empyrean WS anyway) like a Terror or simple Stun effect?

However the real problem is that no NMs really require you to skill chain, in that its faster to forgo all 'save tp' strategies and just use TP at 100%. To accompany this lvl 4 skill chain the real issue that should be implemented is a type of mob that takes severely reduced normal damage, but incredibly high skill chain / magic burst damage.

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Originally Posted by Camate

they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes.

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That is just epic of Moogle proportions.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well, I love this idea.

One concern, won't it put Empyreans even FURTHER above everyone else?

Blade: Hi: Darkness -> Ukko's Fury: Light = Void

Light is already completely soloable even without meditate/sekkanoki on WAR and generally doubles WS damage not to mention whatever lucky bastard gets a MB off of it. If this does any more damage you could two-hit Sobek!

On the other hand if it maybe required three people, as in say add a filler skillchain (void) to go something like this: Darkness + Light = Void(0 damage) then you can stack that with another skillchain: Darkness + Light = Void stage 2 = Cosmos!

Maybe give it something more than just damage (Since you really don't need to be doing more damage than most Empyrean WS anyway) like a Terror or simple Stun effect?

However the real problem is that no NMs really require you to skill chain, in that its faster to forgo all 'save tp' strategies and just use TP at 100%. To accompany this lvl 4 skill chain the real issue that should be implemented is a type of mob that takes severely reduced normal damage, but incredibly high skill chain / magic burst damage.

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Really good post, especially that last part.

I also really like the idea of furthering the combo's of SC's and MB's so that it just doesn't end with 2 people performing a Lv4 SC.

A great idea (and I think that's what Leonlionheart meant as well, not sure) is to make "Void" SC be an "opener" for another type of skillchain. Possibly allowing well timed MB's and WS's right after void to do more damage or inflict status ailments of some sort.

But I really believe doing more with Skill Chains and Magic Burst would up the gameplay dynamics of FFXI considerably.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Really good post, especially that last part.

I also really like the idea of furthering the combo's of SC's and MB's so that it just doesn't end with 2 people performing a Lv4 SC.

A great idea (and I think that's what Leonlionheart meant as well, not sure) is to make "Void" SC be an "opener" for another type of skillchain. Possibly allowing well timed MB's and WS's right after void to do more damage or inflict status ailments of some sort.

But I really believe doing more with Skill Chains and Magic Burst would up the gameplay dynamics of FFXI considerably.

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Yeah, you got the idea. Hopefully the dev's look into this thread more.

Wild speculation time!

My bet is that Level 4 Skillchains will come from chaining Weapon Skills with Light and Darkness elements. I believe that is currently limited to all Relic and Empyrean (but not Mythic) Weapon Skills, with the exception of the Staff Empyrean Weapon Skill Myrkr, and the addition of the Sword Campaign-only Weapon Skills Glory Slash and Uriel Blade.

I am also willing to bet there will be a set of lv.99 Weapon Skills with Light and Darkness elements. I give even odds on them either coming from skill or being quested.

Cosmic Elucidation, here I come!

not enough info on how this would be implemented to really venture an opinion. We don't know what WS would be used (and there may be more introduced between 91-99) to make it, what kind of damage it would do, possibilities for self-sc, whether blue magic would be involved, can an automaton/avatar participate, how much damage, can u burst it, ALOT of questions. Still, it would be in keeping with expanding to accomodate they upper levels.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We brought your feedback about level 4 skill chains to the development team and they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes.

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I am so a Tenzen wannabe. I want his awesome armor that has that Phoenix embroidery, I want his nifty avatar binding great katana, and totally want Phoenix as a summon. Thought I can wait until I am significantly higher level then then the man before I steal his pants and borrow his deity.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well, I love this idea.

One concern, won't it put Empyreans even FURTHER above everyone else?

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above normal weapon not above relic , Relic WS also have lvl3properties

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

not enough info on how this would be implemented to really venture an opinion. We don't know what WS would be used (and there may be more introduced between 91-99) to make it, what kind of damage it would do, possibilities for self-sc, whether blue magic would be involved, can an automaton/avatar participate, how much damage, can u burst it, ALOT of questions. Still, it would be in keeping with expanding to accomodate they upper levels.

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yes they can add new WS that have a special properties and you need that properties to do lvl4, or just lvl3 properties so no relic/empy players can also lvl4

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Originally Posted by Camate

We brought your feedback about level 4 skill chains to the development team and they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes. Okay, so maybe they didn’t really say that at all. They did however say that this is an awesome idea and would like to look into this for the future. Currently they are planning adjustments to the current skill chains to go along with the level cap increase to 99. After this takes place they will look in to the possibility, but keep in mind that skill chains are something that is related to every job and careful attention needs to given, even more so than individual job adjustments.

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Make it so the Level 4 Skillchain can kill a regular monster outright regardless of how many HP is left (like Zantetsuken).

Make it so the Level 4 Skillchain deals damage equal to what a Level 3 Skillchain could do when used against a Notorious Monster but it suffers a greater elemental resistance penalty to ALL elements.

Make it so you can Magic Burst any element on a Level 4 Skillchain.

If you helped create a Level 4 Skillchain, you cannot help create it again for the next 3 minutes (you can still create Level 1 to 3 though).


And also a general suggestion not really pertaining to Level 4 Skillchain:

Extend the time allowed to create a Skillchain.

I would just prefer a new SC or two instead of Cosmic Elucidation.

I think it would be cool to have different kinds of level 4 SC, including Cosmic Elucidation. They could have short term effects, or effects that works once to make it fair and balance. As appose to triggering some mobs weaknesses with different color stagger. How about;

Lv4 SC that freezes the enemy. Like Terrorize.

Another that prevents it from using abilities or TP moves.

One that stops it from casting magic.

Or something that makes it confused and occasionally attacks itself lol

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I think it would be cool to have different kinds of level 4 SC, including Cosmic Elucidation. They could have short term effects, or effects that works once to make it fair and balance. As appose to triggering some mobs weaknesses with different color stagger. How about;

Lv4 SC that freezes the enemy. Like Terrorize.

Another that prevents it from using abilities or TP moves.

One that stops it from casting magic.

Or something that makes it confused and occasionally attacks itself lol

thoughts?

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Unless this effect would be part of a '!!' triggered by the skillchain, and not a part of the skillchain itself, it would break with the existing rules of what skillchains do.

Additionally, we can't have more than one kind of level four skillchains, because of the way they are tiered. All skillchains align with an element, and the only possible elemental combination for level four is all eight elements.

Nicely ranger-centric OP Ram. ^^

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Originally Posted by Volkai

we can't have more than one kind of level four skillchains, because of the way they are tiered. All skillchains align with an element, and the only possible elemental combination for level four is all eight elements.

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The effect could be based on the element used to close the level 4. There are may ways of implementation.

Also, this doesn't have to be part of a trigger system to work. Currently, skillchains create an extra effect of damage. This "liquifaction" or "fusion" burst type effect could logically have an additional effect tacked on. There is code to add damage, so it's not far fetched to think they could put that snippet in.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Unless this effect would be part of a '!!' triggered by the skillchain, and not a part of the skillchain itself, it would break with the existing rules of what skillchains do.

Additionally, we can't have more than one kind of level four skillchains, because of the way they are tiered. All skillchains align with an element, and the only possible elemental combination for level four is all eight elements.

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All I'm saying is skill chains already do extra dmg and allowing magic burst, so how about allowing Lv4 to do more than just looking pretty with extra damage. At Lv95 and Lv99 we might see new weapon skills along with their own element for closing skill chains. If my idea becomes reality then those weapon skills should have a certain added effect upon closing a skill chain.

EX: Tenzen weapon skills:
Oisoya --> Amatsu: Tsukikage(closing with Amatsu: Tsukikage will allow aoe terrorize) = Cosmic Elucidation.

wishful thinking..

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Originally Posted by Camate

We brought your feedback about level 4 skill chains to the development team and they responded that you are all a bunch of Tenzen wannabes. Okay, so maybe they didn’t really say that at all. They did however say that this is an awesome idea and would like to look into this for the future. Currently they are planning adjustments to the current skill chains to go along with the level cap increase to 99. After this takes place they will look in to the possibility, but keep in mind that skill chains are something that is related to every job and careful attention needs to given, even more so than individual job adjustments.

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So I figured I'd bump this thread back to the top just because it was promised to be considered and I think it was just forgotten over time. :X

I really hope that if lvl 4 skillchain becomes a possibility, that it's not cosmic elucidation, and it's Ultima instead. I'd always wanted to see Ultima in some form in ffxi; whether it's as a lvl 4 SC or a team-cast spell, or it's a spell bound to a blm relic weapon.

Kind of just skimmed through the form, but thought I'd throw down a thought I had a many years ago. Always felt that relic weapons should have a special higher tier of weapon skill when one relic was to close another. I know there are things like the GK closing itself making light and all and it might contradict that. but this is just my thought. again, I just skimmed the form and not sure if anyone had mentioned it, if so, sorry for the repost.

P.s. Ultama sounds awesome.